(October 18, 2011 at 4:26 pm)Vaeolet Lilly Blossom Wrote: Then there's the people (like me) who don't reserve the title of 'person' for humankind alone.

And we cannot help but smile at ludicrousness of 'killing a person is wrong' and taking your family to some local McDonalds

They are Pro-life, when it is a abortion.
They are Pro-death when it is bombs being dropped on other religions.

That proves abortion is all about religion and not life.

2 weeks, 2 years, 30 years, 70 years.
If it was all about 'life' they wouldn't support the killing of a human of any age, but they do.

I'm pro-choice btw, don't think it is a good thing, but it is necessary in this world.

Quote:How am I 'sentancing' anyone? I'm not saying that this should be law. Just my understanding of the issue. Am I not allowed an opinion?

Disingenuous, Frods. We have scads of nuts over here who are enacting just such "laws" because they want to placate religious fanatics.

You don't have to be one of them to be one of them. Your opinion is exactly the mindset that these fuckers use to inflict their fucking religion on other people.

(October 18, 2011 at 2:17 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: @ Rhythm

I am not appealing to my beliefs whatsoever, so I don't know why you bring that up. The parasitical relationship applies to a lot of human dependancies... I still don't understand how you can reason justly ending a persons life on it.

You're the one who decided to equivocate and use such imagery. Here you are just reasserting yourself with the same argument reworded. Perhaps you don't understand how I would reason that because I make no such argument, nor do I even attempt to do so. Again, there are parasitic relationships in biology, and there are the things which we call parasitic relationships between each other.

I'm just going to demolish both so that next time you can just say godwillsit without all this fluff. Firstly, I haven't heard anyone here, at any point, claim that abortion is justified because the babies are parasites. Nor have I heard anyone here advocate any sort of "social cleansing" bullshit. Nothing, not a shred even approximating either. What's the deal here? Why even argue against points that no one makes? Is this a practice run for that moment that you'll actually have something to say?

(October 18, 2011 at 12:30 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You were likening a pregnancy to a parasite, in order to de-value that unborn person. I don't think that holds water, because if it did, you would view all dependancies as lesser persons, with less value than other persons.

Though this was not directed at me, I did start the parasite thing, so, yes. There are people living off of welfare with nothing better to do than stay at home and make more babies. These people are of no value to society, but rather a drain of resources. I am not speaking of those in temporary need, as that is what the system is for, but rather the ''career sponges'. Society should cull these parasites.

I'm sort of surprised we still have a debate going. The tally of the pole is 96.3% to 3.7% in favor of legal abortion.

It's good to know the large majority of the people on this site have their head screwed on straight ... well, at least in regards to this issue.

(October 18, 2011 at 6:33 pm)Cinjin Wrote: I'm sort of surprised we still have a debate going. The tally of the pole is 96.3% to 3.7% in favor of legal abortion.

It's good to know the large majority of the people on this site have their head screwed on straight ... well, at least in regards to this issue.

It would be nice if this was a public poll..I would love to see who that minority was..if it was Mehmet, I would ignore the vote.

when it comes to polls on this site, I want to know what the NON-religious think..thats why I make my polls open polls.

(October 18, 2011 at 3:43 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote:

(October 17, 2011 at 5:58 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Many people are parasites... does that make them less of a person?

Yes

(October 18, 2011 at 4:56 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:How am I 'sentancing' anyone? I'm not saying that this should be law. Just my understanding of the issue. Am I not allowed an opinion?

Disingenuous, Frods. We have scads of nuts over here who are enacting just such "laws" because they want to placate religious fanatics.

You don't have to be one of them to be one of them. Your opinion is exactly the mindset that these fuckers use to inflict their fucking religion on other people.

And what is this opinion of mine that you are objecting to Min? I'm pro choice. I am against legalising this. I happen to think, on scientific grounds, that a person begins at conception.

If you're suggesting that my opinion should be censored, then I would suggest that you are the same as "these fuckers" who wish to "inflict their fucking religion on other people"

(October 18, 2011 at 6:10 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(October 18, 2011 at 12:30 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You were likening a pregnancy to a parasite, in order to de-value that unborn person. I don't think that holds water, because if it did, you would view all dependancies as lesser persons, with less value than other persons.

Though this was not directed at me, I did start the parasite thing, so, yes. There are people living off of welfare with nothing better to do than stay at home and make more babies. These people are of no value to society, but rather a drain of resources. I am not speaking of those in temporary need, as that is what the system is for, but rather the ''career sponges'. Society should cull these parasites.

Rhythm Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:@ Rhythm

I am not appealing to my beliefs whatsoever, so I don't know why you bring that up. The parasitical relationship applies to a lot of human dependancies... I still don't understand how you can reason justly ending a persons life on it.

You're the one who decided to equivocate and use such imagery. Here you are just reasserting yourself with the same argument reworded. Perhaps you don't understand how I would reason that because I make no such argument, nor do I even attempt to do so. Again, there are parasitic relationships in biology, and there are the things which we call parasitic relationships between each other.

I'm just going to demolish both so that next time you can just say godwillsit without all this fluff. Firstly, I haven't heard anyone here, at any point, claim that abortion is justified because the babies are parasites. Nor have I heard anyone here advocate any sort of "social cleansing" bullshit. Nothing, not a shred even approximating either. What's the deal here? Why even argue against points that no one makes? Is this a practice run for that moment that you'll actually have something to say?

So do you see here that it wasn't me that decided to equivicate and use such imigary? [see quotes above]

Mate... that post is seriously off the mark.

See me reitterate that I am not talking about my religious POV.

The point being made by Kitchie was that because an unborn child is a parasitic relationship to the mother, then that person is thus less valued. She backed up that statement by asserting that other human parasites are also "less of a person" [see above]

So same question to you again: does a parasitic dependancy lessen the value of the person?

I'm not making this point, I am attempting to defend my stated position that a person cannot be devalued in this way such as to justify killing it.

Social cleansing... nice. Any more ghosts you'd like to pull out of the hat whilst you're at it?

(October 18, 2011 at 7:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: So same question to you again: does a parasitic dependancy lessen the value of the person?

Subjectively, yes. I am pro-capital punishment in certain circumstances. Prison, jail, rehab, and counseling are other alternatives for lesser evils. If they are part of the problem and asking for help, good, let us help them. If they just like being part of the problem or are for some reason incapable of not being part of the problem, that lessens the status in my mind of their value to society and as a person.

Look at the condition Stephen Hawking is in and yet he is able to (albeit subjectively) contribute to society.

Remember, ebryo, fetus...not person. You're arguing everything around your point but not the point itself Frodo. You want to argue about the morality of murder. That would be a different thread.

(October 18, 2011 at 7:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Remember, ebryo, fetus...not person. You're arguing everything around your point but not the point itself Frodo. You want to argue about the morality of murder. That would be a different thread.

The problem is that xtians define an embryo/fetus as a person. So whacking a serial killer in the electric chair has the same ramifications as aborting a one day old conception.