(November 11, 2020 at 8:42 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: So you've said, but you've yet to explain how, which is what I keep asking over and over only to have you babble more about a god.  If moral responsibility requires a moral agent with a moral choice, how could moral responsibility be maintained in the absence of that moral choice?

And that's why I answered that moral responsibility is maintained, to a degree, for the purpose of instruction. God is merciful and realizes what He is doing to us, so He doesn't punish us according to our sins, but according to our need for instruction.

(November 11, 2020 at 8:42 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Is that an accurate description of your own experience?

It is. I've always known, at least the vast majority of the time, when I was doing something evil. Once the Lord brought me to repentance, that was when things became murky, because my sins became less obvious, as they must, or I wouldn't have really been repentant.

(November 11, 2020 at 8:49 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote:

(November 11, 2020 at 8:42 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: So you've said, but you've yet to explain how, which is what I keep asking over and over only to have you babble more about a god.  If moral responsibility requires a moral agent with a moral choice, how could moral responsibility be maintained in the absence of that moral choice?

And that's why I answered that moral responsibility is maintained, to a degree, for the purpose of instruction. God is merciful and realizes what He is doing to us, so He doesn't punish us according to our sins, but according to our need for instruction.

We teach our kids plenty of lessons by maintaining instructive fictions - and I don't doubt the instructive nature of this fiction any more than I doubt those others.

Still...fiction.  If moral responsibility requires a moral agent and a moral choice, then a non-moral agent with no moral choice cant be held morally responsible.  Do we agree or disagree, here?

Quote:It is. I've always known, at least the vast majority of the time, when I was doing something evil. Once the Lord brought me to repentance, that was when things became murky, because my sins became less obvious, as they must, or I wouldn't have really been repentant.

I can understand why you might imagine things to be this way if this is your own life experience.  It's not mine.

(November 11, 2020 at 9:01 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We teach our kids plenty of lessons by maintaining instructive fictions - and I don't doubt the instructive nature of this fiction any more than I doubt those others.

Still...fiction.  If moral responsibility requires a moral agent and a moral choice, then a non-moral agent with no moral choice cant be held morally responsible.  Do we agree or disagree, here?

We disagree. You're doing evil, you know it's wrong, therefore you should be held responsible for it. You may not be in control, but that doesn't change the fact that you're doing evil and need to be punished for it. Again, you can call it unfair if you wish, but it's unfair for a good reason. This is the last I'm discussing this with you...it's only been for H. Skeptic's benefit.

(November 11, 2020 at 9:01 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I can understand why you might imagine things to be this way if this is your own life experience.  It's not mine.

You're saying you've never defiled your own conscience? If so, I don't believe you...unless you have some sort of devil that has made you a sociopath, which I suppose could be possible.

(November 11, 2020 at 9:19 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote:

(November 11, 2020 at 9:01 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We teach our kids plenty of lessons by maintaining instructive fictions - and I don't doubt the instructive nature of this fiction any more than I doubt those others.

Still...fiction.  If moral responsibility requires a moral agent and a moral choice, then a non-moral agent with no moral choice cant be held morally responsible.  Do we agree or disagree, here?

We disagree. You're doing evil, you know it's wrong, therefore you should be held responsible for it. You may not be in control, but that doesn't change the fact that you're doing evil and need to be punished for it. Again, you can call it unfair if you wish, but it's unfair for a good reason. This is the last I'm discussing this with you...it's only been for H. Skeptic's benefit.

Excellent, and how can you be held responsible for what you cannot control, again?

Quote:You're saying you've never defiled your own conscience? If so, I don't believe you...unless you have some sort of devil that has made you a sociopath, which I suppose could be possible.

I'm saying that your life experience is different from my life experience.  I can understand why you'd believe what you do if all of this has been an accurate description of your experience.  Can you understand why I wouldn't believe what you do, since it hasn't been an accurate description of mine?

“If this is your God, he’s not very impressive. He has so many psychological problems; he’s so insecure. He demands worship every seven days. He goes out and creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes. He’s a pretty poor excuse for a Supreme Being.” (Gene Roddenberry) 

Maybe gods are, in reality, disappointing. Real, and really disappointing. The greeks thought as much.

(November 11, 2020 at 9:34 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Excellent, and how can you be held responsible for what you cannot control, again?  

Well, you're assuming that you shouldn't be held responsible for what you can't control. Says who? Perhaps we shouldn't throw insane murderers into asylums, but let them roam the streets...? I mean, if they can't tell right from wrong, then why hold them responsible at all? Let them be free!

Can you give me a reason why you shouldn't suffer for committing an act of rape, particularly if God is trying to teach you that it's wrong and will only bring suffering upon you? I mean, you know it's wrong, but you do it anyway, does it make sense to you for God to just let it go, to not punish it at all? Who is He supposed to punish, Himself? Why, if He meant it for good? And the criminal, why not, if he meant it for evil? After all, he did the crime, right? Should his uncontrollable compulsion exonerate him, does it change the fact that he did the crime? Should he remain free, to do as he pleases? That would thwart God's plan. Who are you to determine the rules in a world run by God?

Evil doesn't exist for its own sake, but to accomplish God's purposes. If God doesn't punish evil, then it makes no sense for it to exist, because no lesson can ever be learned if wrongness isn't addressed with consequence.

You want some easy, cut and dry answer when the issue is more complicated than that, and if you're honestly assessing it you can admit that. I won't hold my breath.

---

(November 11, 2020 at 10:01 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: “If this is your God, he’s not very impressive. He has so many psychological problems; he’s so insecure. He demands worship every seven days. He goes out and creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes. He’s a pretty poor excuse for a Supreme Being.” (Gene Roddenberry) 

If God demanded worship every seven days, then He would receive worship every seven days. And besides, the fourth commandment doesn't even say that, which makes the quote particularly stupid. Can't even get it right!

God makes no mistakes. Zero.

(November 11, 2020 at 10:10 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Maybe gods are, in reality, disappointing.  Real, and really disappointing.  The greeks thought as much.

The Christain god is very unimpressive indeed.

@MilesAbbott81

How about you read this?

About the Holy Bible

(November 11, 2020 at 11:04 pm)Eleven Wrote: @MilesAbbott81

How about you read this?

About the Holy Bible

I read a few paragraphs, over the course of which I saw not a single valid criticism. I would be happy to point out all of the obviously ignorant statements in it, but the list would take far too long. I suggest you find some better material; I'm sure there's some out there.