(June 6, 2021 at 7:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Do you genuinely believe that the issue should be revisited, or any form of criminalization repeated? Is it in the interest of the state to charge anyone with a crime here?

I don't care much for laws to be honest. I'm far more interested in understanding the actual subject of abortion and people's moral reasoning with regards to it. Law should be the last thing anyone discusses, on any topic, given that the proper implementation of law requires having first mastered the subject.

Quote:As Christians, we could belch and they would find an argument.

Nope but please keep telling yourself that 

Quote:Good point btw!

No it isn't

(June 6, 2021 at 7:36 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(June 6, 2021 at 7:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Do you genuinely believe that the issue should be revisited, or any form of criminalization repeated?  Is it in the interest of the state to charge anyone with a crime here?

I don't care much for laws to be honest. I'm far more interested in understanding the actual subject of abortion and people's moral reasoning with regards to it. Law should be the last thing anyone discusses, on any topic, given that the proper implementation of law requires having first mastered the subject.

I see, no convictions to have the courage of.  Carry on wondering whether and how much a whore should be shamed for killing babies. I do, fwiw, prefer your disinterest to the commitment of your peers. The world is that much better for it.

(June 6, 2021 at 10:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(June 6, 2021 at 7:36 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: I don't care much for laws to be honest. I'm far more interested in understanding the actual subject of abortion and people's moral reasoning with regards to it. Law should be the last thing anyone discusses, on any topic, given that the proper implementation of law requires having first mastered the subject.

I see, no convictions to have the courage of.  Carry on wondering whether and how much a whore should be shamed for killing babies.  I do, fwiw, prefer your disinterest to the commitment of your peers.  The world is that much better for it.

No one has answered the question, "...is the fetus a baby"? Science is pretty clear. 

If yes, then the answer is simple.

As for any murder? Select a degree of; culpability & severity. And, I'm sure this will even be "worked" around
in the courts. If there are penalties for ending a life it may become more important to society. Instead of the
caviler approach that is now acceptable towards ending a life.

A small child understands that it is a great loss. When we lost a child, (stillborn @ 18wks.) my 5 year old 
cried for days over it! Why? Because even a child knows the value of human life. And w/o knowing, or seeing 
the baby! 

God help us, that this is even a debate!

Why would the answer be simple, if it were a baby? Let's say that it is. In fact let's call it murder, since you insist. Will you strap a woman to a table to prevent her from having an abortion? Will you fine her? Will you sue providers or incarcerate accomplices?

That's the only place you might feign surprise at a debate, since no one is debating whether the loss of a child is a great loss, or insisting that the day a person gets an abortion is the best day of their life. I'd like to think that even a child could understand that, too. What do you think?

(June 7, 2021 at 12:22 pm)ronedee Wrote:

(June 6, 2021 at 10:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I see, no convictions to have the courage of.  Carry on wondering whether and how much a whore should be shamed for killing babies.  I do, fwiw, prefer your disinterest to the commitment of your peers.  The world is that much better for it.

No one has answered the question, "...is the fetus a baby"? Science is pretty clear.

...

God help us, that this is even a debate!

I understand that Catholics consider all stillborns as full humans with a soul.  They are given a name and are buried.  When Catholics say how many children they have had, they are included in the count.

Your faith tradition is not the rest of the world.  I don't believe in souls, and an early-stage fetus is not a baby.  It doesn't have memories, its brain isn't doing much of anything except growing.  It has the potential to become a baby, and I understand parents putting their hopes and dreams upon it.  I can even understand them wondering how another mother could possibly not have the same feelings.

But you aren't the potential mother.  Your feelings for fetuses, and your religious views on fetus souls, fetus limbo (or heaven), God's will, and the Pope's declarations have no weight in another person's life.  They have their own beliefs, and you can't prove yours are better.  And, its their own body, of which you have no right to have power over.

(June 7, 2021 at 12:22 pm)ronedee Wrote: No one has answered the question, "...is the fetus a baby"? Science is pretty clear. 

If yes, then the answer is simple.

As for any murder? Select a degree of; culpability & severity. And, I'm sure this will even be "worked" around
in the courts. If there are penalties for ending a life it may become more important to society. Instead of the
caviler approach that is now acceptable towards ending a life.

A small child understands that it is a great loss. When we lost a child, (stillborn @ 18wks.) my 5 years old cried for days over it! Why? Because even a child knows the value of human life. And w/o knowing, or seeing the baby! 

God help us, that this is even a debate!

People who decide to have an abortion usually do it in the first few weeks, like a six-week-old fetal pole and gestational sac are as big as a lima bean. And before twenty-two weeks, a fetus is not in any way equal to “a baby” or “a child.” It cannot survive outside the uterus because it cannot breathe—not even on a respirator. It cannot form anything like thoughts.

People who decide later, do it because there are problems with the fetus or the mother.

That is because anomalies on a fetus are not discovered until after twenty weeks. After all, up until that point, major organ systems are too small and indistinct for sonogram technology to capture them. Sometimes a fetus has anencephaly: it has a brain stem but is missing some or most of the brain or cranium. Or it will have renal agenesis: no kidneys. Or something doctors call “limb-body wall complex,” in which organs develop outside the fetal body cavity. And so on.

In this kind of case, it is merciful for the fetus not to develop into a baby.

For example, there are cases where fundamental Christians opt to bring the pregnancy to a term of fetuses with the Potter syndrome because they expect a miracle to happen. Then the doctors must watch the baby as it dies in pain after birth because it can not breathe since it doesn't have lungs.

(June 7, 2021 at 12:34 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: Your faith tradition is not the rest of the world.  I don't believe in souls, and an early-stage fetus is not a baby.  It doesn't have memories, its brain isn't doing much of anything except growing.  It has the potential to become a baby, and I understand parents putting their hopes and dreams upon it.  I can even understand them wondering how another mother could possibly not have the same feelings.

Have you ever taken a course on embryology, or developmental biology/psychology? New organisms begin with fertilization; everything from that moment on till the day you die is development.

Quote:No one has answered the question, "...is the fetus a baby"? Science is pretty clear.

 No, it's been answered by pointing out the question is irrelevant

Quote:If yes, then the answer is simple.

Yup the answer is the question is irrelevant 

Quote:As for any murder? Select a degree of; culpability & severity. And, I'm sure this will even be "worked" around
in the courts. If there are penalties for ending a life it may become more important to society. Instead of the
caviler approach that is now acceptable towards ending a life.

Except it isn't murder period and no amount of punishing people will make the fetus valued more.

Quote:A small child understands that it is a great loss. When we lost a child, (stillborn @ 18wks.) my 5 year old 
cried for days over it! Why? Because even a child knows the value of human life. And w/o knowing, or seeing 
the baby! 

So you admitting your case is built on emotionalism and childish feelings ....Nice 

Quote:God help us, that this is even a debate!

You right it isn't a debate your side wrong and the settled ages ago 

---

Quote:Have you taken a course on embryology, or developmental biology/psychology? New organisms begin with fertilization; everything from that moment on till the day you die is development.

Then it's a question then of more developed or less and being a new organism is no more significant than being perfect compy or a mere extension of the old one. This line of reasoning will get no were.

(June 7, 2021 at 12:22 pm)ronedee Wrote:

(June 6, 2021 at 10:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I see, no convictions to have the courage of.  Carry on wondering whether and how much a whore should be shamed for killing babies.  I do, fwiw, prefer your disinterest to the commitment of your peers.  The world is that much better for it.

No one has answered the question, "...is the fetus a baby"? Science is pretty clear. 

If yes, then the answer is simple.

As for any murder? Select a degree of; culpability & severity. And, I'm sure this will even be "worked" around
in the courts. If there are penalties for ending a life it may become more important to society. Instead of the
caviler approach that is now acceptable towards ending a life.

A small child understands that it is a great loss. When we lost a child, (stillborn @ 18wks.) my 5 year old 
cried for days over it! Why? Because even a child knows the value of human life. And w/o knowing, or seeing 
the baby! 

God help us, that this is even a debate!

I am sorry for the loss of the pregnancy...obviously a lot of hope and joy were pinned on the promise of a wanted, and probably planned, child.

Most women are not aborting a happy pregnancy.  There's a difference.

How many people on this thread are/were actually capable of becoming pregnant?  Anyone other than me?