(June 11, 2021 at 7:15 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(June 11, 2021 at 11:46 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Christians want their God to be caring and loving. If Islam is openly stating that satan works under God to cause suffering to people, or test their loyalty towads Gods holy law and plan, THEN God is evil, if he directs satan to cause so much suffering. It will cause rebellion among conscious and thinking christians. It's is for the reason that Satan is a rebellious and isn't Gods employee, according to so many sermons by christians preachers.

He doesn't work under God. God created him and gave him the choice to either rebel or submit:

Quote:Sura 17, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 61 )   And [mention] when We said to the angles, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Satan. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?"

( 62 )   [Satan] said, "Do You see this one whom You have honored above me? If You delay me until the Day of Resurrection, I will surely destroy his descendants, except for a few."

Satan was a righteous being once upon a time as it seems to the level of him attending with the angels themselves. But God "tested him" with "Adam's creation". Satan was extremely racist and couldn't handle prostrating to a creature made of clay -Satan is made out of fire-.

He failed his test and chose to go on this eternal crusade against mankind to drag them into hell with him.
God knew he will choose this before he created him, he knows our destinies and our future; that's a corner of faith in Islam's message.

So no, God is "a creator of all things including evil", but he is not evil, actually he wrote mercy upon himself:

Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 12 )   Say, "To whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth?" Say, "To Allah." He has decreed upon Himself mercy. He will surely assemble you for the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. Those who will lose themselves [that Day] do not believe.

Satan will burn in hell forever? Are non believers will get the same treatment - endless pain? According to Islam.

(June 11, 2021 at 7:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You do realize that we're not made of clay, right winter....?  Anywho, last I checked, allah didn't own me, so there seems to be a few things that aren't his.  I presume that he knows where I live if he cares to register a complaint about his claim to my status as human chattel.

We are made of stardust + water. That's pretty much a type of "clay".
Actually your creator "is your owner"; I owe it to the minerals composing my body -stardust and H2O-, along with the classy unmatched evolutionary pathway that turned me and my ancestors to humans through millions of years of constant evolution. Identical to what Noah said to his people once:

Quote:Sura 71, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 13 )   What is  with you that you do not attribute to Allah grandeur
( 14 )   While He has created you in stages?
( 15 )   Do you not consider how Allah has created seven heavens in layers
( 16 )   And made the moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp?
( 17 )   And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
( 18 )   Then He will return you into it and extract you [another] extraction.

---

(June 12, 2021 at 9:44 am)purplepurpose Wrote:

(June 11, 2021 at 7:15 pm)WinterHold Wrote: He doesn't work under God. God created him and gave him the choice to either rebel or submit:


Satan was a righteous being once upon a time as it seems to the level of him attending with the angels themselves. But God "tested him" with "Adam's creation". Satan was extremely racist and couldn't handle prostrating to a creature made of clay -Satan is made out of fire-.

He failed his test and chose to go on this eternal crusade against mankind to drag them into hell with him.
God knew he will choose this before he created him, he knows our destinies and our future; that's a corner of faith in Islam's message.

So no, God is "a creator of all things including evil", but he is not evil, actually he wrote mercy upon himself:

Satan will burn in hell forever?  Are non believers will get the same treatment - endless pain? According to Islam.

I believe that hell is not eternal, but very very very very long. Suffering in it will take Billions of years.
I based my faith on this Quranic verse:

Quote:Sura 40, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 10 )   Indeed, those who disbelieve will be addressed, "The hatred of Allah for you was [even] greater than your hatred of yourselves [this Day in Hell] when you were invited to faith, but you refused."

( 11 )   They will say, "Our Lord, You made us lifeless twice and gave us life twice, and we have confessed our sins. So is there to an exit any way?"

( 12 )   [They will be told], "That is because, when Allah was called upon alone, you disbelieved; but if others were associated with Him, you believed. So the judgement is with Allah, the Most High, the Grand."

I wrote a topic about it in the past:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-60386.html

and

https://atheistforums.org/thread-60458.html

Non believers would not spend an eternity in hell. But they will spend a duration like .
Enough for them to die in the afterlife, maybe falling into a black hole or something.

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: We are made of stardust + water. That's pretty much a type of "clay".

Naive BS

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Actually your creator "is your owner";

Wrong. I created my children. I do not in any way "own" them. That kind of BS belongs in the dark ages. Only some scumbag would suggest that owning another person was "right".

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I owe it to the minerals composing my body -stardust and H2O-,

Sagan made an analogy once. Not only do you fail to understand it, you steadfastly refuse to let go of the misunderstanding.

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: along with the classy unmatched evolutionary pathway that turned me and my ancestors to humans through millions of years of constant evolution.

Evolution happens all the time. It is still happening. It will continue to happen. What of it?

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Identical to what Noah said to his people once:

Noah said nothing to anyone. he never existed.

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I believe that hell is not eternal, but very very very very long. Suffering in it will take Billions of years.

Who cares what you believe? It doesn't magically become true simply by dint of you believing it.

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I based my faith on this Quranic verse:

Why should anyone care what is in your magic compendium of superstitious drivel?

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I wrote a topic about it in the past:

And the present and likely the future. You simply keep vomitting forth the same repetitive nonsense as though by magic somebody someplace will buy that snake oil.

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Non believers would not spend an eternity in hell. But they will spend a duration like
Enough for them to die in the afterlife, maybe falling into a black hole or something.

And now you are making up crap that isn't even in your magic book. Yawn.

(June 12, 2021 at 3:44 am)Angrboda Wrote:

(June 11, 2021 at 4:18 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Aside from God's existence, we all share the first principles of thought (identity, non-contradiction, excluded middle) and our own existence as axioms. Unfortunately they are not enough to prove that there is an external reality, that's why Descartes was a theist, he understood that without presupposing God we are just stuck with solipsism.

Well, setting aside that we don't all share those first principles, either necessarily, or in fact, and that there's nothing inherently incoherent about solipsism (and bear in mind that a solipsist is an atheist), I think we need to back up a moment here.  You said that without reference to an absolute, nothing you say has any truth value whatsoever.  You readily acknowledge that you do not have access to God, and so you cannot reference any of your beliefs with respect to an absolute (God), and so by your own admission, nothing that you, Klorophyl, say has any truth value whatsoever.  So given that, rejecting your assertion that the axioms underpinning an atheist's world are incoherent is true takes no effort whatsoever since you've acknowledged that it isn't incoherent in any absolute sense and that nothing you say has a truth value.

While this is a handy sidestep, and I'm content to avail myself of it, I still don't understand why you feel the atheist worldview is incoherent.  You'll need to explain that more fully.  Start with explaining what is incoherent with the hard solipsist's worldview.  And once you've done that, you've provided good reason to embrace an alternative without needing to reference any absolute.

And as long as we're talking about incoherence, I'll simply point out that coherence is a relatively cheap commodity.  If my worldview happens to be incoherent, I can solve that problem by rejecting or adding one or more axioms.  Coherence can be cheaply bought.  Pyhhronic skepticism would seem to be immune to the complaints you are making because it doesn't choose to embrace any axioms.  But if it can be cheaply bought, it can be hard to regain for some people.  In particular, the Abrahamic god is himself incoherent.  And since the god of Islam is an Abrahamic god, that means that your lodestar is itself a hotbed of coherence problems.

No Angrboda we have to presuppose the magic man or else the matrix is true

The same reason Scottie Pippen couldn't stop Michael Jordan.

Angrboda: “When he realizes he’s losing an argument, he disappears.”

@Klorophyll :”Keep poisoning the well.”

*disappears*

😬

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(June 11, 2021 at 7:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You do realize that we're not made of clay, right winter....?  Anywho, last I checked, allah didn't own me, so there seems to be a few things that aren't his.  I presume that he knows where I live if he cares to register a complaint about his claim to my status as human chattel.

We are made of stardust + water. That's pretty much a type of "clay".
Actually your creator "is your owner"; I owe it to the minerals composing my body -stardust and H2O-, along with the classy unmatched evolutionary pathway that turned me and my ancestors to humans through millions of years of constant evolution. Identical to what Noah said to his people once:

Wrong again, on both counts.  We aren't made of stardust and water, and I have no owner.  Your great fairy has already been invited to make his claim, he doesn't seem to be as interested in the possession of a human being as you.

Noah never said shit to anybody.  He's a character in a story. You don't really think that you could convince a person to be a slave by quoting luke from return of the jedi...do you? I would love to hear more about just how many times your filthy god plans on killing a person. The once isn't enough, you sure it'll be satisfied with twice? Can we get this fucker some hamsters and a worlds best dad mug, so he can crush the hamsters with it? Would that keep it busy and out of our hair? Is that it's kink?

I'd ask what was wrong with you, but I already know.

(June 13, 2021 at 10:46 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: We are made of stardust + water. That's pretty much a type of "clay".
Actually your creator "is your owner"; I owe it to the minerals composing my body -stardust and H2O-, along with the classy unmatched evolutionary pathway that turned me and my ancestors to humans through millions of years of constant evolution. Identical to what Noah said to his people once:

Wrong again, on both counts.  We aren't made of stardust and water, and I have no owner.  Your great fairy has already been invited to make his claim, he doesn't seem to be as interested in the possession of a human being as you.

Noah never said shit to anybody.  He's a character in a story.  You don't really think that you could convince a person to be a slave by quoting luke from return of the jedi...do you?  I would love to hear more about just how many times your filthy god plans on killing a person.  The once isn't enough, you sure it'll be satisfied with twice?  Can we get this fucker some hamsters and a worlds best dad mug, so he can crush the hamsters with it?  Would that keep it busy and out of our hair?  Is that it's kink?

I'd ask what was wrong with you, but I already know.

We are made of stardust:

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/lifestyl...stars.html

Quote:Human body contains 97 percent stardust like stars

Combined with water:

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/water...er_objects

Quote:Up to 60% of the human adult body is water.

As for God; stop treating him like a "humanoid"; that is a type of "Anthropomorphism" a grownup adult should be ashamed from thinking in such a way.

FSM spoke unto me Winter maybe this will help you;



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How would you know how a grownup thinks? You haven't even had The Talk yet, completely unaware of how babies are made or who makes them.

Shame, likewise, I'd be willing to guess is a difficult concept. When you say shame you probably mean something like fear. You think I should be afraid, but I'm neither afraid nor ashamed to point out that the god you describe would dirty up a pig pen. If you insist on an asshole god, you can't really clutch your pearls when people point out that it's an asshole. This whole bit is ridiculous.

Fire imp didn't like mudman, gotcha.