(June 11, 2021 at 4:15 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: LOL. The only one question-begging here is you. You’re entire argument amounts to: “Obviously, everything is designed because, der.”

My argument rests on an analogy we do everyday. We see complex objects that serve a purpose and/or are useful to us, we deduce there was agency behind them. A closer look reveals that literally everything needs an agent. The real problem is that we get used to the design we see around us and stop being impressed. 

(June 11, 2021 at 4:33 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I'm already convinced that your religion is real.....you do exist, after all.  If you think that arguing your god into existence would make me or anyone else a muslim, well..you couldn't be more wrong about a fairly simple thing.  So yeah, that would be completely pointless.  I have no use for, no interest in, and nothing but disgust for your religion.  It's not an issue of whether or not your club exists, or even your clubs fairy president existing.   You are either right about a god existing and belong to a dumspter fire of a faith, or you are wrong about a god existing and still belong to a dumpster fire of a faith.

I never claimed that these arguments prove Islam. The way any Muslim apologist will procede is by trying to separately prove the existence of a just deity. Next, because the deity is just, there has to be at least one correct revelation from it. The monumental task is of course to prove Islam is the best candidate for this correct revelation. This is the only way I know to procede and there is no other way to argue methodologically in favor of Muslim faith.

I will go further and say that, not only Islam is the best candidate, it is the only possible candidate. The two other Abrahamic religions don't have authentic sources to begin with. The Bible is nothing more than conflicting accounts of what Jesus might have said. At least the Qur'an is a verbatim recitation whose historical accuracy is guaranteed by oral transmissions of large crowds of people; the Bible just can't beat this one.

(June 11, 2021 at 4:33 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: What problem?  Again, how is hard solipsism a problem to a hard solipsist, and how does asserting it's truth solve whatever problem that is?  I don't personally have a hard solipsism problem, nor do I assert it's truth.  I think that there are other minds, minds apart from gods, even.   Do you?

Of course there are other minds, nobody is arguing about that except solipsists. You say that you personally don't have a hard solipsism problem, well fine good for you. Still, the possibility of us being brains in a vat just can't be ruled out without theism, or more generally some axiom about a caring entity guaranteeing we are not brains in a vat.

(June 11, 2021 at 4:33 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You're not presenting any reason why they would be compatible, and to be fair..I don't expect you to come up with any, because they're mutually exclusive concepts.  You're babbling about force and imagining that other people..and not you (lols) are the solipsist in this exchange.

They are not mutually exclusive, it's just going to be your word against mine. Why can't the foreknown events be exactly those that an agent will do by their free will, how do you rule this one out ? 

 As I explained repeatedly it's better to think of the deity as the asymptotic limit of some simpler example, a father who predicts what flavor of ice cream his daughter will pick doesn't negate her free will, if we assume the father has perfect foreknoweldge of his daughter's future, that just means he knows her very, very, very (well, infinitely) well, it doesn't mean that he intervenes physically to impede her freedom.

(June 11, 2021 at 4:33 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Correct, I don't think that there are any gods in this world.  I think that there are humans in this world, so, it seems to me the answer to the question of whether a human has some, any, or a particular ability - like free will, will ultimately refer back to something about..well, humans.  

Gods existing has literally nothing to say on the subject of whether people have free will.  Not believing in gods doesn't force any conclusion about human ability, and believing in gods doesn;t force people to believe in free will, for that matter, either.  It's simply what you imagine you would believe if there were no gods.  It doesn't appear to be irrelevant, it is irrelevant.

I bet that if you asked, you'd find that happening alot.  That you believe I must think this or that thing on account of not believing in your god..and would routinely be wrong about that.  For you, god is an underlying premise of everything, and so it would seem to you that every belief would be effected by not believing in your god...but to me, no belief is effected by my not believing in your god.  You should have some experience with this as well, when you consider other peoples gods and your own beliefs.

This is simply false. If one manages to prove that the theistic God exists, then forcibly people have free will. It's true that some logical proof doesn't change the state of affairs in this world. But how much we know about the world anyway ? It's like saying proving general relativity, a theory of gravitation, has no consequence on the fact that  we are systematically attracted to the ground. Well sure, but proving the premise of relativity changed the way we look at gravity, it becam a natural property of our universe, not some magical force we could only speculate about.

The same thing is true with free will. Everyone has their own speculation on free will, but if one independently proves there is a god, then the possible speculations on free will just narrow down.

And how else should one argue for their faith other than by forcing conclusions? Like I said everyone has their own flavor of religion and God, but this is simply because people don't think rationally, and when they do, it's very rarely about religion and beliefs.

(June 13, 2021 at 5:23 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: FSM spoke unto me Winter maybe this will help you;



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What if they are Cassius Clay?

(June 12, 2021 at 12:31 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I believe that hell is not eternal, but very very very very long. Suffering in it will take Billions of years.
I based my faith on this Quranic verse:

Quote:Sura 40, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 10 )   Indeed, those who disbelieve will be addressed, "The hatred of Allah for you was [even] greater than your hatred of yourselves [this Day in Hell] when you were invited to faith, but you refused."

( 11 )   They will say, "Our Lord, You made us lifeless twice and gave us life twice, and we have confessed our sins. So is there to an exit any way?"

( 12 )   [They will be told], "That is because, when Allah was called upon alone, you disbelieved; but if others were associated with Him, you believed. So the judgement is with Allah, the Most High, the Grand."

The verse doesn't entail that hell is finite. It only recounts, using rhetorical devices, the desperate wish of its inhabitants to get a second chance. Many many verses in the Qur'an contain the keyword خالدون which indicates eternity

(June 15, 2021 at 1:55 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 13, 2021 at 5:23 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: FSM spoke unto me Winter maybe this will help you;



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What if they are Cassius Clay?

After scouring the rule book; Yes, It's allowed.  Clay Aiken is also acceptable

Why doesn't God kill Satan? Maybe you should define Satan, which you tried.
In the old testament, Satan seems like God's buddy, nothing special, but in the new one, he seems to have powers.

Now, I guess, many Christians blame Satan for all the evil that is happening in the world and the universe, imagine him as constantly present everywhere, thus making Satan ridiculously powerful and therefore a ridiculous concept that God created him and allowing him to exist because he is a fully formed deity.
Especially since some Christians (like agnostics) believe that Satan created the world.

(June 15, 2021 at 1:44 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(June 11, 2021 at 4:33 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I'm already convinced that your religion is real.....you do exist, after all.  If you think that arguing your god into existence would make me or anyone else a muslim, well..you couldn't be more wrong about a fairly simple thing.  So yeah, that would be completely pointless.  I have no use for, no interest in, and nothing but disgust for your religion.  It's not an issue of whether or not your club exists, or even your clubs fairy president existing.   You are either right about a god existing and belong to a dumspter fire of a faith, or you are wrong about a god existing and still belong to a dumpster fire of a faith.

I never claimed that these arguments prove Islam. The way any Muslim apologist will procede is by trying to separately prove the existence of a just deity. Next, because the deity is just, there has to be at least one correct revelation from it. The monumental task is of course to prove Islam is the best candidate for this correct revelation. This is the only way I know to procede and there is no other way to argue methodologically in favor of Muslim faith.

I will go further and say that, not only Islam is the best candidate, it is the only possible candidate. The two other Abrahamic religions don't have authentic sources to begin with. The Bible is nothing more than conflicting accounts of what Jesus might have said. At least the Qur'an is a verbatim recitation whose historical accuracy is guaranteed by oral transmissions of large crowds of people; the Bible just can't beat this one.

Having had this conversation with you many times, I'm beginning to worry you won't ever understand no matter how plainly and how often I express myself.

Tell me that the sources your religion cribbed from are garbage, and I think you have a problem...but..... honestly, you could save your breath entirely with me   I don't care whether or not your silly god exists, because it's a garbage god.  I won't join your club because you're bad people with bad beliefs.  Do you understand?

Quote:Of course there are other minds, nobody is arguing about that except solipsists. You say that you personally don't have a hard solipsism problem, well fine good for you. Still, the possibility of us being brains in a vat just can't be ruled out without theism, or more generally some axiom about a caring entity guaranteeing we are not brains in a vat.

Excellent, minds apart from god that are not gods mind.  There goes the idea that he wrote our minds with his will. The question still remains as to whether any of our minds or wills are free.

Quote:They are not mutually exclusive, it's just going to be your word against mine. Why can't the foreknown events be exactly those that an agent will do by their free will, how do you rule this one out ? 

It's not your word against mine, it's the one word against the other.  If it can be known that you will do x, you cannot do other than x  

Quote: As I explained repeatedly it's better to think of the deity as the asymptotic limit of some simpler example, a father who predicts what flavor of ice cream his daughter will pick doesn't negate her free will, if we assume the father has perfect foreknoweldge of his daughter's future, that just means he knows her very, very, very (well, infinitely) well, it doesn't mean that he intervenes physically to impede her freedom.

Still babbling about intervention.  It's knowing that presents a problem for free will.  Not force, as I've explained every time you've argued against force.  

Quote:This is simply false. If one manages to prove that the theistic God exists, then forcibly people have free will. It's true that some logical proof doesn't change the state of affairs in this world. But how much we know about the world anyway ? It's like saying proving general relativity, a theory of gravitation, has no consequence on the fact that  we are systematically attracted to the ground. Well sure, but proving the premise of relativity changed the way we look at gravity, it becam a natural property of our universe, not some magical force we could only speculate about.

The same thing is true with free will. Everyone has their own speculation on free will, but if one independently proves there is a god, then the possible speculations on free will just narrow down.

And how else should one argue for their faith other than by forcing conclusions? Like I said everyone has their own flavor of religion and God, but this is simply because people don't think rationally, and when they do, it's very rarely about religion and beliefs.

That's not actually how logic works.  If person proved that gods existed, that would prove nothing about humans having a particular ability.  You say alot of shit, when you start getting shit right, even by accident, that will be swell.

(June 16, 2021 at 12:03 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(June 15, 2021 at 1:44 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: I never claimed that these arguments prove Islam. The way any Muslim apologist will procede is by trying to separately prove the existence of a just deity. Next, because the deity is just, there has to be at least one correct revelation from it. The monumental task is of course to prove Islam is the best candidate for this correct revelation. This is the only way I know to procede and there is no other way to argue methodologically in favor of Muslim faith.

I will go further and say that, not only Islam is the best candidate, it is the only possible candidate. The two other Abrahamic religions don't have authentic sources to begin with. The Bible is nothing more than conflicting accounts of what Jesus might have said. At least the Qur'an is a verbatim recitation whose historical accuracy is guaranteed by oral transmissions of large crowds of people; the Bible just can't beat this one.

Having had this conversation with you many times, I'm beginning to worry you won't ever understand no matter how plainly and how often I express myself.

Tell me that the sources your religion cribbed from are garbage, and I think you have a problem...but..... honestly, you could save your breath entirely with me   I don't care whether or not your silly god exists, because it's a garbage god.  I won't join your club because you're bad people with bad beliefs.  Do you understand?

Quote:Of course there are other minds, nobody is arguing about that except solipsists. You say that you personally don't have a hard solipsism problem, well fine good for you. Still, the possibility of us being brains in a vat just can't be ruled out without theism, or more generally some axiom about a caring entity guaranteeing we are not brains in a vat.

Excellent, minds apart from god that are not gods mind.  There goes the idea that he wrote our minds with his will.  The question still remains as to whether any of our minds or wills are free.

Quote:They are not mutually exclusive, it's just going to be your word against mine. Why can't the foreknown events be exactly those that an agent will do by their free will, how do you rule this one out ? 

It's not your word against mine, it's the one word against the other.  If it can be known that you will do x, you cannot do other than x  

Quote: As I explained repeatedly it's better to think of the deity as the asymptotic limit of some simpler example, a father who predicts what flavor of ice cream his daughter will pick doesn't negate her free will, if we assume the father has perfect foreknoweldge of his daughter's future, that just means he knows her very, very, very (well, infinitely) well, it doesn't mean that he intervenes physically to impede her freedom.

Still babbling about intervention.  It's knowing that presents a problem for free will.  Not force, as I've explained every time you've argued against force.  

Quote:This is simply false. If one manages to prove that the theistic God exists, then forcibly people have free will. It's true that some logical proof doesn't change the state of affairs in this world. But how much we know about the world anyway ? It's like saying proving general relativity, a theory of gravitation, has no consequence on the fact that  we are systematically attracted to the ground. Well sure, but proving the premise of relativity changed the way we look at gravity, it becam a natural property of our universe, not some magical force we could only speculate about.

The same thing is true with free will. Everyone has their own speculation on free will, but if one independently proves there is a god, then the possible speculations on free will just narrow down.

And how else should one argue for their faith other than by forcing conclusions? Like I said everyone has their own flavor of religion and God, but this is simply because people don't think rationally, and when they do, it's very rarely about religion and beliefs.

That's not actually how logic works.  If person proved that gods existed, that would prove nothing about humans having a particular ability.  You say alot of shit, when you start getting shit right, even by accident, that will be swell.

Well this is the same guy who earlier tried to twist my words to argue i agreed with his bullshit about foreknowledge and freewill.

147 posts in and still arguing why one imaginary character doesn't, or can't, stop another imaginary character. Riveting stuff.

Daddy, why doesn't the Lone Ranger just kill Butch Cavendish?

Because the show would be over and they'd all be out of jobs, you dumb little shit.

(June 8, 2021 at 1:58 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 8, 2021 at 1:33 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: In the OT, Satan is a servant of God.  He is the tester, but he is not allowed free reign.  He is part of God's plan for the fallen world.

Yep, just like a mafia boss.

Like a crooked cop.