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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 11:40 am
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2021 at 11:46 am by Frank Apisa.)
(June 23, 2021 at 10:13 pm)LostLocke Wrote: (June 23, 2021 at 3:25 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: The expression "None of us believe IN gods" really is shorthand of a sort for, "None of us believe there are any gods."
That does not mean you "believe" there are no gods...it just means you do not "believe" there are any gods.
But MANY people who describe themselves as atheists DO "BELIEVE" there are no gods. They assert there are no gods...they assert the existence of gods is impossible.
As stated above, you're over complicating this.
Simplified...
If you do not believe in any god, and claim no gods exist, you are a gnostic (hard) atheist.
If you do not believe in any god, but do not claim you know for certain that no gods exist, you are an agnostic (soft) atheist.
The only "requirement" for being an atheist is that you do not believe any gods exist. All the other details, whether you "know" or not, what the probabilities are, etc, are really a separate issue.
I am not an atheist of any kind.
If that annoys or otherwise bothers you...I am sorry it does.
(June 24, 2021 at 11:08 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: (June 23, 2021 at 2:10 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: I’ve known and been friends with many individuals who use “atheist” as a descriptor …and to a person, each of them has one of the following two beliefs, opinions, or guesses:
1) There are no gods.
2) It is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one god.
I’m wondering if this is a universal truth (or close to a universal truth) about people who use the descriptor…so what better place to ask it than an Internet Atheist Forum…and what better people to ask than people who use the descriptor?
Do any of you know people who use the descriptor “atheist” to describe themselves, but who do not subscribe to at least one of the two items mentioned above?
Is it your opinion that asserting one or both is universal to people who apply the descriptor to themselves?
That's actually a fair cop. I suppose there might be some atheist somewhere who thinks it is more likely at least one god exists than not and is just determined to not believe anyway. I don't mind saying I believe gods or a God are unlikely.
However which deity gets which estimate depends on the claims. A God that is omniscient and omnipotent has attributes that contradict each other (if it can do something other than what it has foreseen, it is not omniscient, if it can do something it has not foreseen, it is not omniscient); it is a married bachelor, a square circle, it does not exist. The God of Abraham as described in the Bible created days before he created the sun, flooded the entire world up past the mountaintops, and stopped the sun in the sky for the convenience of Hebrews fighting a battle; those things did not happen therefore the God that did them does not exist.
Some deities do not have attributes that contradict each other or acts that contradict what is known of physical reality. They still readily fall into what we know of myth-making and story telling and have no evidence that supports their actual existence, but they are not flat-out impossible so I rate them merely highly unlikely.
And full disclosure: I do not use a defintion of god that is non-supernatural. Super-advanced aliens or computers do not count, even if they create a universe or we cannot distinguish their technology from magic. That said, I do not claim such a being could not convince me it is a god. I would certainly call it a god if I thought it would do something awful to me if I didn't.
Thank you for that. I was a thoughtful reply...and I agree with lots of it.
That "supernatural" thing has always been a bugaboo for me. If a thing exists...it is part of nature. It is not beyond nature.
If ghosts exist...they are not supernatural...they are a part of nature.
Obviously, humans are merely the dominant life form on planet Earth. But Earth is a nondescript pebble circling a nondescript star in a nondescript galaxy...among hundreds of billions of galaxies that we know about.
There undoubtedly is lots about "nature" that we humans do not know.
Which is why I use the qualifier, "...in what we humans call the physical universe."
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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 1:04 pm
None of which is relevant to the question of atheism, unfortunately, since atheism isn't a lack of belief in et. ALOOOOOOOOT of atheists believe in aliens.
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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 1:20 pm
(June 24, 2021 at 11:40 am)Frank Apisa Wrote: (June 23, 2021 at 10:13 pm)LostLocke Wrote: As stated above, you're over complicating this.
Simplified...
If you do not believe in any god, and claim no gods exist, you are a gnostic (hard) atheist.
If you do not believe in any god, but do not claim you know for certain that no gods exist, you are an agnostic (soft) atheist.
The only "requirement" for being an atheist is that you do not believe any gods exist. All the other details, whether you "know" or not, what the probabilities are, etc, are really a separate issue.
I am not an atheist of any kind.
If that annoys or otherwise bothers you...I am sorry it does.
So you believe in some version of a god? Which one?
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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 1:32 pm
The extra special real god. Mine!
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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 1:58 pm
(June 24, 2021 at 1:20 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: (June 24, 2021 at 11:40 am)Frank Apisa Wrote: I am not an atheist of any kind.
If that annoys or otherwise bothers you...I am sorry it does.
So you believe in some version of a god? Which one?
I DO NOT "BELIEVE' IN ANY VERSION OF ANY GOD.
AND I AM STILL NOT AN ATHEIST.
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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 2:04 pm
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 2:05 pm
(June 24, 2021 at 1:58 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: (June 24, 2021 at 1:20 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: So you believe in some version of a god? Which one?
I DO NOT "BELIEVE' IN ANY VERSION OF ANY GOD.
AND I AM STILL NOT AN ATHEIST.
Yes you are.
If you don't currently believe in a god you're an atheist whether you like it or not. You may be an agnostic atheist but agnosticism is a stance on knowledge, atheism is a stance on belief.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 2:10 pm
(June 24, 2021 at 2:05 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: (June 24, 2021 at 1:58 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: I DO NOT "BELIEVE' IN ANY VERSION OF ANY GOD.
AND I AM STILL NOT AN ATHEIST.
Yes you are.
If you don't currently believe in a god you're an atheist whether you like it or not. You may be an agnostic atheist but agnosticism is a stance on knowledge, atheism is a stance on belief.
I am not an atheist. I realize counting people like me among your numbers would strengthen your group intelligence values, but we are not atheists.
Every atheist lacks a belief in gods, but not every person without a belief in god is an atheist. Some dictionaries indicate that is how the word is used, but some do not. Prior to the 1950's, just about EVERY dictionary had as its primary definition: Someone who denies the existence of gods. That certainly was the case during the days of Thomas Huxley...who wanted to separate himself from the atheists and espouse a more nuanced, logical stance.
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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 2:15 pm
(June 24, 2021 at 2:10 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: (June 24, 2021 at 2:05 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Yes you are.
If you don't currently believe in a god you're an atheist whether you like it or not. You may be an agnostic atheist but agnosticism is a stance on knowledge, atheism is a stance on belief.
I am not an atheist. I realize counting people like me among your numbers would strengthen your group intelligence values, but we are not atheists.
Every atheist lacks a belief in gods, but not every person without a belief in god is an atheist. Some dictionaries indicate that is how the word is used, but some do not. Prior to the 1950's, just about EVERY dictionary had as its primary definition: Someone who denies the existence of gods. That certainly was the case during the days of Thomas Huxley...who wanted to separate himself from the atheists and espouse a more nuanced, logical stance.
Okay, I need an explanation. Having you call yourself an atheist would make those of us who already do appear smarter?
Bwahahahahaha!
Worth the price of admission.
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RE: A question about atheistic “beliefs” (opinions, guesses, etc.)
June 24, 2021 at 2:23 pm
(June 24, 2021 at 2:15 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: (June 24, 2021 at 2:10 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: I am not an atheist. I realize counting people like me among your numbers would strengthen your group intelligence values, but we are not atheists.
Every atheist lacks a belief in gods, but not every person without a belief in god is an atheist. Some dictionaries indicate that is how the word is used, but some do not. Prior to the 1950's, just about EVERY dictionary had as its primary definition: Someone who denies the existence of gods. That certainly was the case during the days of Thomas Huxley...who wanted to separate himself from the atheists and espouse a more nuanced, logical stance.
Okay, I need an explanation. Having you call yourself an atheist would make those of us who already do appear smarter?
Bwahahahahaha!
Worth the price of admission.
You think atheists appear smarter than...who?
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