(June 30, 2021 at 7:39 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: 1. Is the peace provided by religious belief a "legitimate" peace? 2. How instrumental are one's beliefs --religious or otherwise-- to a peaceful state of mind?

You and Nudger both talked about "flow"... as in "not approaching life's events with resistance, but (like a leaf) floating along the river... perhaps going where life takes you.

Speaking only for myself, I was referring to the psychological state of flow as defined by Csikszentmihalyi, in which there is perfect alignment between intention and ability during the performance of a focused activity.

(June 30, 2021 at 7:39 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: You and Nudger both talked about "flow"... as in "not approaching life's events with resistance, but (like a leaf) floating along the river... perhaps going where life takes you.

Now, I know that neither you or Nudger is a Daoist. But, as you both know, this is a principle of Daoism. (...if Daoism can be said to have principles...).

In any case, it is a belief, isn't it? Or is it?

Perhaps it is an attitude? Or modus operandi? Or maybe something that the both of you found that simply works.

It’s how I find my zen, lol. When body and mind and environment all line up and you get to where you were headed without grasping or hacking away at a thing, miserable in a sea of overwork by any name.

(June 30, 2021 at 11:26 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: ...Csikszentmihalyi...

I can totally pronounce that.

edit: just googled it. Very interesting stuff.

(June 30, 2021 at 11:26 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Speaking only for myself, I was referring to the psychological state of flow as defined by Csikszentmihalyi, in which there is perfect alignment between intention and ability during the performance of a focused activity.

This is how I learned of it and use the term also. I mostly use it when referring to that sweet spot in an artistic endeavor where you're not mentally present in the task yet it unlocks this creative energy all the same. A sort of "get out of my own way" mind. I have sat working on a project for hours, gotten lost in a fantasy adventure story in my head while music is playing, and then blinked and looked at the finished painting with only very vague, spotty memory of actually going through the process of painting it.

Dug enough holes to bury a counties worth of bodies that way. Same thing when I’m handpicking or pruning or weeding.

Fishing does it for me too.

For me, peace is living my life in the real World as opposed to the make-believe World of religious theistic fantasy.

Thank you all, for your answers and precipitation!

I want to say, that there was no ulterior motive to drive the conversation into Christianity....unless it went naturally.
I have a true desire to know what drives the "fundamental" differences between us. Because i have family and friends
who were/are atheists it's been a learning experience. And they're usually guarded as to emotions and feelings
behind their beliefs, or lack thereof.  My dad has since passed, and my brother has switch to agnostic. So, the conversation
in that close realm is gone...but still with unanswered questions.

I've noticed that most of you feel that "peace" isn't a virtue at all, and comes from something you do. A physical manifestation.
Most of us can relate to "things" giving us peace. I'm also a musician/guitarist. That, I call my "basket weaving". It keeps me
sane. But also, I do need the peace to formulate inside me, from deep reaches of the soul... or maybe mind. I realize that
most everything is fleeting that is outside. The saying "comfortable in your own skin" comes to mind. I personally need to
reach that place on my own, through meditation and prayer. 

I also noticed a few of you have a "spiritual" side.... and it seems that you need to place yourself mentally in a position to enjoy
whatever it is that gives you peace. That's interesting. I can relate to that very much!

Then there are the dissenters. I find it hard to understand why they are so negative and unwilling to participate in any dialog?
I've determined it's either fear or hate. Fear of revealing anything that might blow their cover and be trapped into something
they can't control. Or, just flat-out hate for anyone who represents God in any way. I realize I'll never get an honest answer
from them... at least intellectually. Part of the experience here.

So, my summary so far is that "peace" (for most here) is considered just another thing that comes from some "source" other than
themselves. In other words; not manufactured, found or revealed from within one self. Just enjoyed by some thing or experience.

Thanks again. Sorry I couldn't answer some of you individually. I'm still a busy guy! When I retire in a few years... I'll hang around
more often! I can hear the collective moan from here! LOL!

P.S. I forgot to mention the people that "use" a [lack] of peace as motivation. I can relate to that too! But, I don't like it unless it's
needed, and where emotion and adrenalin are a necessary element in the situation at hand. It would be total emotion in that case
for me! I would like to hear more from the few who experience this? Please elaborate in anyway you can on the motivations. thx

More that I plug into it than making it. It’s all around, all the time, IMO.

Basketweaving would probably work too.

ronedee's answer also reminds me of Neo's flow state.

I wouldn't rule out finding peace within oneself, though, ronedee.

Most of us don't seek peace there... but that doesn't mean that isn't a valid route. IMO, any route that produces peace is valid. Even if it's religious. After all, it can be a disturbing world, and we should all find peace and comfort by whatever means are available.

Martyrs seek eternal peace.