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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 3:07 pm
(March 18, 2022 at 3:01 pm)Astreja Wrote: (March 18, 2022 at 2:11 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Sounds like you didn't know what the genetic fallacy means in 1964.
The long history of some religions being an instrument of social control/manipulation has no bearing on their truth.
Well, few seven-year-olds have the opportunity to study logical fallacies, y'know.
On a balance of probability, though, given the total lack of credible evidence for the existence of gods and the substantial history of exploitation by religious leaders and their secular allies, it's a moot point. Religion does serve as an instrument of social control, and a lot of power-hungry mortals have reaped the benefits of this control, and it does not appear that any genuine gods did anything to prevent this exploitation. Maybe God favors power hungry people over people who are not that way?
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 3:34 pm
Apparently, God also told the axioms to go forth, be fruitful, and multiply.
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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 3:41 pm
(March 18, 2022 at 3:07 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (March 18, 2022 at 3:01 pm)Astreja Wrote: Well, few seven-year-olds have the opportunity to study logical fallacies, y'know.
On a balance of probability, though, given the total lack of credible evidence for the existence of gods and the substantial history of exploitation by religious leaders and their secular allies, it's a moot point. Religion does serve as an instrument of social control, and a lot of power-hungry mortals have reaped the benefits of this control, and it does not appear that any genuine gods did anything to prevent this exploitation. Maybe God favors power hungry people over people who are not that way?
Maybe so - but we're already circling the drain of who cares either way to begin with. I think that the religiously inclined might want to put more work into a religion that people want to join before they waste their time insisting that it's true.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 3:48 pm
(March 18, 2022 at 3:01 pm)Astreja Wrote: Well, few seven-year-olds have the opportunity to study logical fallacies, y'know.
On a balance of probability, though, given the total lack of credible evidence for the existence of gods and the substantial history of exploitation by religious leaders and their secular allies, it's a moot point.
It's a fallacy, lol. No moot point here. We also have a substantial history of using science to make weapons of mass destruction, does that invalidate science or undermine it in any way?
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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 3:51 pm
You know...Kloro...a great many of us think that making weapons of mass destruction does discredit the character of the scientists doing it, and the institution from which it arises. I want you to hold on to whatever feeling you had when you thought there was a gotcha here - and realize that some people see the religion you believe in, as a mere tool of social control or as a divinely sanctioned tool of social control..exactly the same way.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 3:58 pm
(March 18, 2022 at 2:11 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: (March 18, 2022 at 12:53 pm)Astreja Wrote: Two people heard me state in 1964 words to the effect of "You know, stories of hell would be a good way for governments to scare people into behaving." One of the witnesses was the older brother of the boy next door, and he was amazed that I could make an observation like this at my age.
By this time I had already been reading for five years (started at age 2 1/2), had read the Bible, and knew all the major story arcs.
Sounds like you didn't know what the genetic fallacy means in 1964.
The long history of some religions being an instrument of social control/manipulation has no bearing on their truth.
(Bold mine)
Does so, does so.
Boru
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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 3:59 pm
(March 18, 2022 at 3:48 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: It's a fallacy, lol. No moot point here. We also have a substantial history of using science to make weapons of mass destruction, does that invalidate science or undermine it in any way?
We have evidence that nuclear weapons exist, so the statement "nuclear weapons exist" is reasonable.
We don't have evidence that gods exist, and any religion that promotes the worship of a deity cannot be said to be true until an actual god shows up. It may not be falsifiable, but at this point it is not verified.
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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 4:06 pm
(This post was last modified: March 18, 2022 at 4:09 pm by R00tKiT.)
(March 18, 2022 at 3:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You know...Kloro...a great many of us think that making weapons of mass destruction does discredit the character of the scientists doing it, and the institution from which it arises. I want you to hold on to whatever feeling you had when you thought there was a gotcha here - and realize that some people see the religion you believe in, as a mere tool of social control or as a divinely sanctioned tool of social control..exactly the same way
You say religion is merely a tool of social control, this is clearly false as one can some simply hold the core beliefs of some religion without seeking any benefit or manipulating anyone.
Christianity, an obviously false belief, is still widespread despite losing all kinds of influence in the recent centuries. Clearly there is more to the story than just social control.
Besides, given that people like Stalin and Pol Pot existed and had a long and prosperous career of genocide and mass murder, one obviously doesn't need religion to rule people and convince them to do horrific things.
(March 18, 2022 at 3:59 pm)Astreja Wrote: We have evidence that nuclear weapons exist, so the statement "nuclear weapons exist" is reasonable.
We don't have evidence that gods exist, and any religion that promotes the worship of a deity cannot be said to be true until an actual god shows up. It may not be falsifiable, but at this point it is not verified.
The issue here is unrelated to God's existence. Using religion for social control exists, and happened repeatedly. Nobody is denying this. But the truth-value of religion is clearly independent of religious people's intentions. And the same is true about science.
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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 4:11 pm
@ Klorophyll
Quote:Besides, given that people like Stalin and Pol Pot existed and had a long and prosperous career of genocide and mass murder, one obviously doesn't need religion to rule people and convince them to do horrific things.
Simply because one doesn’t need religion to do horrific things doesn’t mean that it doesn’t grease the wheels of horrificitude.
Boru
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RE: Learn the true mercy
March 18, 2022 at 4:14 pm
(This post was last modified: March 18, 2022 at 4:15 pm by Ahriman.)
(March 18, 2022 at 4:06 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: (March 18, 2022 at 3:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You know...Kloro...a great many of us think that making weapons of mass destruction does discredit the character of the scientists doing it, and the institution from which it arises. I want you to hold on to whatever feeling you had when you thought there was a gotcha here - and realize that some people see the religion you believe in, as a mere tool of social control or as a divinely sanctioned tool of social control..exactly the same way
You say religion is merely a tool of social control, this is clearly false as one can some simply hold the core beliefs of some religion without seeking any benefit or manipulating anyone.
Christianity, an obviously false belief, is still widespread despite losing all kinds of influence in the recent centuries. Clearly there is more to the story than just social control.
Besides, given that people like Stalin and Pol Pot existed and had a long and prosperous career of genocide and mass murder, one obviously doesn't need religion to rule people and convince them to do horrific things. Ideologies are religions too.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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