(June 13, 2022 at 7:01 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: By your rules - our military should be able to order our soldiers to kamakazi into the enemy....

Or maybe they shouldn' t have picked the military as a career???

Actually, the only orders we're allowed legally to refuse -- and it's a tricky path you've chosen, little monk -- is if you think the orders you're given are illegal, per Geneva convention or UCMJ.

Outside of that, yes, we could be and were given orders to risk our lives, and the refusal to obey them could be and most often is addressed through military courts for big problems (your refusal cost another unit-member their life or health) or Article 15 proceedings.

And yes, anyone who's asked me whether the military is a good option for them, my first question is "Are you ready to die for your country at any time? Because you can be asked to do so." So yeah, I enlisted knowing full well it could result in my death and that I had no legal recourse to object to those orders.

Police personnel aren't military.

(June 13, 2022 at 6:15 pm)Helios Wrote:

(June 13, 2022 at 6:07 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It’s not that at all. I’ll try again:

According to you and the Supreme Court, all a cop has to do to not do his or her job is to state that they feel doing so would put them in harm’s way.

‘Officer Smith, why didn’t you write that speeder a ticket?’ ‘Thought they might have had a gun, Sarge.’

‘Constable Williams, why haven’t you responded to that domestic violence report?’ ‘Gee, Sarge - tempers at that house are running high - I might get hurt.’

‘Officer Dusenberry, you’re on school crossing duty this week.’ ‘Can’t do it, Sarge. Have you SEEN the traffic on that road? I could get run over.’

Leaving aside the no-dashing-into-gun-battle scenario, what is there to prevent cops from doing any of the things they’ve sworn to do? All they’d have to do is play the ‘I’m afraid for my life’ card to be able to do nothing at all.

Boru

God, I bet everyone wishes they could get paid to not do their job because they could just say they feared for their lives 

Pizza Delivery Guy- The customer might be a serial killer.

Roofer - I might fall

Prison Guard- That place is full of psychos!

Lumber Jack- A tree might fall on me 

Miner- The mine might collapse

Lifeguard - I might drown.

The point, along with qualified immunity, is to make police less accountable. From a completely practical standpoint police accountability would be a nightmare for our system. Quiet parts, out aloud and all. The coalition of authoritarians and institutionalists aren't wrong on this one. US police emphatically could not operate the way they currently operate under greater scrutiny. In more effective models, the paperwork for simply unholstering your taser (and not using it) is so onerous that it fosters a culture of procedural restraint out of pure work avoidance. Some cops are too lazy to taze you, but american cops are too lazy to make sure you're the perp before they shoot you. Gee, a real headscratcher there. We're several decades and a whole different workforce removed from anything even resembling restraint, let alone a culture of it, here. Not only that, the cop unions will never go for it unless they can get gaurantees of amnesty for past offenses if they agree to subject themselves to the rule of law they purport to uphold.

Paramilitary force..of occupation.

I’m perfectly OK with this one:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/13/us/texas-...index.html

Quote:A man who fired his weapon into a room where children were attending a summer camp just outside Dallas was shot and killed by police on Monday, according to authorities.

“Officers quickly located and exchanged gunfire with a suspect armed with a handgun. The suspect was wounded during the exchange,” the department said. The man was transported to a nearby hospital where he was pronounced dead, police said, and no children, staff or officers were harmed in the incident. The identity of the gunman was not disclosed by police.

Not for nothing, but maybe this post will get me some relief from accusations leveled at me by certain parties who claim I think all cops are mindless killers and that there’s no such thing as a justified police shooting.

Boru

(June 13, 2022 at 7:35 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Firefighters run into danger all the time...it's part of the job.

True.

But are you going to condemn a firefighter for NOT going into a building that he thinks is likely to collapse with him in it?

You're acting like being a cop is a dangerous job OLB. It isn't. Working in a tomato field is more dangerous than policing, in mere reality. We gave them guns not because the job was dangerous, but so that -they- would be more dangerous.

Now here we are. The perfect storm of an abusive police force and an armed public.

(June 14, 2022 at 7:41 am)onlinebiker Wrote:

(June 13, 2022 at 7:35 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Firefighters run into danger all the time...it's part of the job.

True.

But are you going to condemn a firefighter for NOT going into a building that he thinks is likely to collapse with him in it?

Of course not. My objection to the SCOTUS ruling is that, if applied to firefighters, it would give them an excuse to NOT go into a building by claiming it is likely to collapse, whether it is or not.

Boru

(June 14, 2022 at 7:59 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 14, 2022 at 7:41 am)onlinebiker Wrote: True.

But are you going to condemn a firefighter for NOT going into a building that he thinks is likely to collapse with him in it?

Of course not. My objection to the SCOTUS ruling is that, if applied to firefighters, it would give them an excuse to NOT go into a building by claiming it is likely to collapse, whether it is or not.

Boru

So quit working both sides of the street mate.


You either have the right to refuse an order that you think likely to kill you - or you don' t.


There is no in between.

Of course there is. There's refusing an order that you don't think is likely to kill you, but pretending you think it's likely to kill you to justify the refusal. I'd have been court-martialed if I had refused an order on the grounds that I thought carrying it out would be too dangerous for my liking.

Let's see...cops are given various weapons and bullet proof vests. Seems that would indicate a level of danger inherent to the job.

Maybe that's just me.