"Pride comes before a fall." On the contrary methinks.

(September 24, 2022 at 7:17 pm)Belacqua Wrote: It means that you feel you are more deserving or more important in society than you really are. 

Yeah, it seems to me that pride exists in direct relationship to others. And as such it can be differentiated from terms like confidence or self-esteem, which exist independently of others.

There's a theory of prejudice in psychology called relative deprivation theory. The premise is simple: Groups become dissatisfied with aspects of their lives relative to other groups. The word relative is important because it doesn't matter whether if you are actually deprived in any objective sense, only whether you feel deprived in relation to other people. Racism and hate groups tend to emerge under such conditions.

I think that's potentially a good description of pride—a standard people believe they deserve to have relative to others. And a big part of Christianity has to do with doing away with such standards. To be willing to cross group boundaries, especially ones you feel are beneath you. I remember someone saying once (maybe it was CS Lewis himself), that the most powerful image in Christianity wasn't the cross, but Jesus washing the feet of the disciples.

I liked it when he force choked the tree. I look around my yard and I think.."I wish I could force choke a tree!".

If pride is undeserved warrant or beliefs about it...in a relative framework, is christianity pride? Could that explain the mountain of christian hypocrisy?

(September 25, 2022 at 11:01 am)Duty Wrote: "Pride comes before a fall." On the contrary methinks.

Actually, ‘Pride goeth before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall.’

I won scripture prizes at Sunday school, I did.

Boru

(September 25, 2022 at 12:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 25, 2022 at 11:01 am)Duty Wrote: "Pride comes before a fall." On the contrary methinks.

Actually, ‘Pride goeth before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall.’

I won scripture prizes at Sunday school, I did.

Boru

At my annual 2-week church camp I, as a child, would memorize whole books of the New Testament (such as Philippians) reciting them back as a camp contest. (Unbelievable to me now!) Most campers did not do this, as they had better things to do with their time.

(September 24, 2022 at 7:17 pm)Belacqua Wrote: It means that you feel you are more deserving or more important in society than you really are. 

That would be conceit. Pride, objectively, is self-respect and the healthy recognition of one's worth. Pride is a virtue when practiced rationally, but, like other virtues, it can become a vice when carried to excess. Thus pride can become conceit.

(September 25, 2022 at 10:30 am)Duty Wrote: Having some pride - also known as having healthy self-esteem.

I'm not overly familiar with the self-esteem literature, but I doubt researchers are using it as another word for pride.

Hubris

(September 25, 2022 at 9:05 am)Duty Wrote: Agreed - it's a matter of definitions to a degree, it's just that winning a sense of pride for worthwhile achievements seems fundamental to me, and yet the word is vilified virtually 360 in the culture:

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Quote:[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride]Pride (superbia), also known as hubris (from Ancient Greek ὕβρις) or futility. It is considered the original and worst of the seven deadly sins on almost every list, the most demonic.[41] It is also thought to be the source of the other capital sins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

There are several cases like this, sad to say. People read the old definitions of words and interpret them according to newer meanings. It leads to confusion. 

Frankly I wish we could stick with "superbia" or "hubris." That would distinguish it from the healthier kind of pride you're talking about. 

I certainly agree that having a chance to accomplish something, and to feel good about what you've done, is an important part of life. Lewis is not arguing against such a thing. 

It's a matter of perspective. If I make a painting I'm pleased with, that doesn't mean I should start saying I'm better than Rembrandt. (That would be delusional.) Or that life is not fair because I'm not famous. (This could make me bitter.) Or that because I am so great I should start treating other painters as my inferiors. (That's the bad kind of pride.)

(September 24, 2022 at 6:21 pm)Duty Wrote: Yet I feel/think/deduce that having pride in one's deeds and behaviour is central and fundamental to living a decent life. No pride = fail, basically.

And you have a point, but CS Lewis probably didn't come up himself with the idea to snub pride. I mean, you already had seven cardinal sins proclaimed by Pope Gregory I in the 7th century.

These seven cardinal sins were nothing but arbitrary taboos. And he certainly wanted to forbid them to subdue people better. Like anger, which meant the ability to recognize the injustice of a tyrannical papacy and respond with hostility; or envy, meaning the ambition that led humans to emulate the flight of birds and the comfort of the ruling classes; or gluttony, meaning the desire to eat as well as the clergy; or greed, meaning the desire to own private property at a time when the Catholic church wanted to be the world’s only capitalist; etc.