In the news today is Iran's acknowledgment that they supplied drones to Russia. Iran claims it was a limited number before the start of the war. Ukraine disputes that the number is or was small. Yet on the other side, Russia is accusing the west of fighting a proxy war by supplying Ukraine with weapons.

Is Iran supplying Russia with weapons any different from the U.S. and Europe supplying weapons to Ukraine?

Doesn't seem like there would be any fundamental difference to me, though material support is hardly enough to call anything a proxy war, imo. I don't think that iran wants a war with ukraine, let alone the us, but it's fairly easy to see why they wouldn't want russia to collapse as a product of it's misadventure, or why it would be difficult to say no when russia comes hat in hand.

40 nations, including the us, supplying russia's enemy. I'd be a little bit worried, personally, if I was counting on iran to help out on that one - but hey...beggars and choosers.

(November 6, 2022 at 1:30 pm)Angrboda Wrote: In the news today is Iran's acknowledgment that they supplied drones to Russia.  Iran claims it was a limited number before the start of the war.  Ukraine disputes that the number is or was small.  Yet on the other side, Russia is accusing the west of fighting a proxy war by supplying Ukraine with weapons.

Is Iran supplying Russia with weapons any different from the U.S. and Europe supplying weapons to Ukraine?

If Zelenskyy invaded Kursk and fired HIMARS rounds at apartment buildings in Moscow then Iran supplying weapons to Russia would be no different from the US supplying weapons to Ukraine.

I suppose there's that, lol.

(November 6, 2022 at 1:30 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Is Iran supplying Russia with weapons any different from the U.S. and Europe supplying weapons to Ukraine?

No.

(November 6, 2022 at 1:30 pm)Angrboda Wrote: In the news today is Iran's acknowledgment that they supplied drones to Russia.  Iran claims it was a limited number before the start of the war.  Ukraine disputes that the number is or was small.  Yet on the other side, Russia is accusing the west of fighting a proxy war by supplying Ukraine with weapons.

Is Iran supplying Russia with weapons any different from the U.S. and Europe supplying weapons to Ukraine?

the nature of Iran supplying weapons to russia is somewhat different from what we normally consider proxy war.    The goal of a proxy war is to use local players with whom one has influence to attempt to resist or roll back the encroachment of local players acting to further the influence of one’s main opponent without engaging in direct military action against one’s opponent.

NATO support for ukraine definitely count as a proxy war by the US, using ukraine and to an lesser extent other nato states, as proxy, not to resist the encroachment of russian influence, but to further roll back russia from area of her long standing influence while consolidating her diminant american position over region of eastern europe represented by former warsaw pact states. 

Iran support of russia has a different objective than an mere mirror image of US objective in Ukraine.    Iran is not trying to resist or roll back western influence in Ukraine.   Iran is doing this to gain leverage, through a relatively weak form of blackmail, to bring the US back to the nuclear accord which the US unilaterally withdrew from, in order to remove the sanctions that the US unilaterally reimposed under trump.    the blackmail is weak because iranian aid is unlikely to decisively influence  the progress of the campaign over winter or  tip the outcome of the war,  and Iran does not have the means to escalate her intervention to affect the desires outcome if her initial blackmail fails. 


secondarily, iran also want a quid pro quo from russia, to the effect of because iran militarily supported russia in ukraine when no one else would, therefore regardless of the outcome in ukraine, russia should continue to support iran in syria or any other conflicts in the middle east.

The area of her longstanding influence, is that the new euphemism for the invasion of a sovereign state? I think you've got the last bit spot on, though. Iran is building leverage. I wonder if they might -also- use that leverage to deal with "further roll back russia from area of her longstanding influence" some day. They'd love to help, if russia just does them one favor, though.

(November 6, 2022 at 4:22 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The area of her longstanding influence, is that the new euphemism for the invasion of a sovereign state?  I think you've got the last bit spot on, though.  Iran is building leverage.  I wonder if they might -also- use that leverage to deal with "further roll back russia from area of her longstanding influence" some day.  They'd love to help, if russia just does them one favor, though.

that is not an euphemism.   that a reality more fundamental than “sovereignty”.    sovereignty is a vanity which persists at the sufferance of the balance of power.

Well, there we have it, right? Ukraine isn't a country, that's a fiction. It's vanity. I guess that applies to russia too...so........? Seems to me the balance of power isn't looking great for vlad the miscalculator, at present, and since that's the final word, the rest is pointless, yes?

yes, it applied to everyone. it is merely a question of whose vanity presumes too much from the balance of power.