I need advice- my problem stems from my utter contempt for religious 'faith'; that willful rejection of logic, reason and common sense in favour of total absurdity (aka The Bible).
That this ludicrous work of fiction is the foundation of a worldwide belief system is SO depressing; understandable for those unfortunates with no access to education but unforgivable for the millions who knowingly allow others to tell them what to believe. Is it laziness, fear of the unknown or just plain stupidity?

Anyway, to get to the point- I would like NOT to be aggressive, NOT to feel compelled to confront religiosity but find it impossible in the face of the irrational nonsense trotted out by smug christians; debating calmly is not possible when one party will not accept fact over superstition; when seemingly intelligent people refuse to use their brains.

Any suggestions?[/size][/font]

Religion is a tool of manipulation

If it wasnt, it would not exist. What would profit its existence?

Therapy, and red wine.

Wait, so you're mad about sky cake?

Holding on to hate is like taking poison to make someone else die, it only hurts you. You should excise your thought cancer and reframe your understanding of religion. Religion is an evolutionary step towards science and society, order from anarchy, and a genuine desire to figure out what is going on in the world around us. The fact that so many find a need to adhere to archaic mumblings written down long ago is lamentable, but unilaterally hating a group of people simply because they hold a different view than you is equal lunacy. Here is a funny video that might help you reframe your understanding of religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w

I try to avoid debates altogether after abandoning several because I wanted to call someone an egotistical fucktard. I have come to the conclusions that these debates accomplish nothing except skyrocketing blood-pressure. Choose your battles wisely like debates about teaching ID in schools. With meaningless debates, just take a deep breath and let them go.

(December 6, 2011 at 10:43 am)happyinfidel Wrote: I need advice- my problem stems from my utter contempt for religious 'faith'; that willful rejection of logic, reason and common sense in favour of total absurdity (aka The Bible).
That this ludicrous work of fiction is the foundation of a worldwide belief system is SO depressing; understandable for those unfortunates with no access to education but unforgivable for the millions who knowingly allow others to tell them what to believe. Is it laziness, fear of the unknown or just plain stupidity?

Anyway, to get to the point- I would like NOT to be aggressive, NOT to feel compelled to confront religiosity but find it impossible in the face of the irrational nonsense trotted out by smug christians; debating calmly is not possible when one party will not accept fact over superstition; when seemingly intelligent people refuse to use their brains.

Any suggestions?[/size][/font]

Yes, take control of your mind and don't let your feelings (hate) get the best of you. We know religion pollutes thought, but blindly hating it will make you the same. I tell you, this user lucent has made me stand in awe of the stupidity he gives out. Count to 10, whatever. I guess the key is patience.

What is sky cake?

Look, 'hate', 'poison', 'cancer' are your misunderstanding of my position. Religion is contemptible to educated people, I stand by that for the reasons stated; no way (in these enlightened times) is it a genuine attempt to understand anything; rather it is brainwashing & mass mind control for power and profit.
Where there is EVIDENCE to support peoples' views I have no problem; show me that evidence!
I don't hate people for believing absurdities, just baffled as to HOW they convince themselves and WHY they have the need; the only answer I can find is they allow others to manipulate them through fear and superstition, usually implanted in childhood.
Sadly I admit it is utterly pointless debating religious freaks since they must refute science, evidence and logic in order to cling to their 'beliefs'.
Nice to talk, have a good day

(December 6, 2011 at 11:59 am)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Wait, so you're mad about sky cake?

Holding on to hate is like taking poison to make someone else die, it only hurts you. You should excise your thought cancer and reframe your understanding of religion. Religion is an evolutionary step towards science and society, order from anarchy, and a genuine desire to figure out what is going on in the world around us. The fact that so many find a need to adhere to archaic mumblings written down long ago is lamentable, but unilaterally hating a group of people simply because they hold a different view than you is equal lunacy. Here is a funny video that might help you reframe your understanding of religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w

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I like the red wine suggestion; not so much therapy- you need that more than I; Humanistic Jew seems an oxymoron, please enlighten me- no insult intended.

How do you deal with the bible's contradictions, cruelty, misogyny, paternalism, absurdities, etc, etc? Or should that be the Torah? (excuse my ignorance, raised a protestant). One of my favourite stories is the Gadarene swine; as Dawkins said, why did this loving god deprive an innocent Jewish farmer of his livelihood? Hilarious, isn't it?

It has been estimated (from bible study) that this same god murdered, or ordered murdered, some 2.4 million of his people.
Nice one, god! How sad that well educated people insist this drivel is factual.

(December 6, 2011 at 10:47 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: Therapy, and red wine.

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(December 6, 2011 at 1:02 pm)Faith No More Wrote: I try to avoid debates altogether after abandoning several because I wanted to call someone an egotistical fucktard. I have come to the conclusions that these debates accomplish nothing except skyrocketing blood-pressure. Choose your battles wisely like debates about teaching ID in schools. With meaningless debates, just take a deep breath and let them go.

Agreed- it is futile. Am trying to let go but that kind of implies indifference; just trying to stand up and be heard over the din of religious 'respect' in most societies.

A humourous tale- talked with a guy, well spoken, literate, at a display about the twelve tribes of Israel. Asked "you say Jesus spoke to you; how do you know it was Jesus?"
Reply- "Because I began to speak in tongues"
"Did you understand what you were saying?"
"No"
So, you were babbling incoherently?"
"Yes, that's how I knew"

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: I like the red wine suggestion; not so much therapy- you need that more than I; Humanistic Jew seems an oxymoron, please enlighten me- no insult intended.

How do you deal with the bible's contradictions, cruelty, misogyny, paternalism, absurdities, etc, etc? Or should that be the Torah? (excuse my ignorance, raised a protestant). One of my favourite stories is the Gadarene swine; as Dawkins said, why did this loving god deprive an innocent Jewish farmer of his livelihood? Hilarious, isn't it?

It has been estimated (from bible study) that this same god murdered, or ordered murdered, some 2.4 million of his people.
Nice one, god! How sad that well educated people insist this drivel is factual.

I don't "deal" with them.

It's only as oxymoronic as having been raised in a religion/people with a long history and cultural heritage, but not believing any of it came about because of God.

The Torah, and the New Testament of course, is a collection of Aesop fables. Opening my Tanakh is like opening Bullfinch's mythology (though a good deal more boring in a lot of cases).

Also, I was being sarcastic about the therapy. I need a warning label.

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: What is sky cake?

It is a humorous way to refer to religion.

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: Look, 'hate', 'poison', 'cancer' are your misunderstanding of my position. Religion is contemptible to educated people, I stand by that for the reasons stated;...

Sorry, I misstated your position, but only because extreme positions are more fun. Also, the title of the post says your extremism so I read your post as if you were raging and hating on religion.

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: ...no way (in these enlightened times) is it a genuine attempt to understand anything;...

This is not true; most religious people are sincere and their adherance to religion is their best effort to make sense of this world we live in. What you are saying is atheist equivalent of when someone says to me, "You can't REALLY be an atheist! There MUST be a God."

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: ...rather it is brainwashing & mass mind control for power and profit.

This is also false. You see, most of the clergy really believe they are doing a good thing.

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: Where there is EVIDENCE to support peoples' views I have no problem; show me that evidence!
I don't hate people for believing absurdities, just baffled as to HOW they convince themselves and WHY they have the need; the only answer I can find is they allow others to manipulate them through fear and superstition, usually implanted in childhood.
Sadly I admit it is utterly pointless debating religious freaks since they must refute science, evidence and logic in order to cling to their 'beliefs'.
Nice to talk, have a good day

Most of what you say here is great. I think there is a point to debating even the "freaks" of religion. Maybe YOU are the only one that will take the time to explain your ideas to them. I would say that it is certainly pointless to have those discussions unless you can keep your cool during them.

(December 7, 2011 at 1:37 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: [quote='happyinfidel' pid='213267' dateline='1323241025']
I like the red wine suggestion; not so much therapy- you need that more than I; Humanistic Jew seems an oxymoron, please enlighten me- no insult intended.

How do you deal with the bible's contradictions, cruelty, misogyny, paternalism, absurdities, etc, etc? Or should that be the Torah? (excuse my ignorance, raised a protestant). One of my favourite stories is the Gadarene swine; as Dawkins said, why did this loving god deprive an innocent Jewish farmer of his livelihood? Hilarious, isn't it?

It has been estimated (from bible study) that this same god murdered, or ordered murdered, some 2.4 million of his people.
Nice one, god! How sad that well educated people insist this drivel is factual.

I don't "deal" with them.

It's only as oxymoronic as having been raised in a religion/people with a long history and cultural heritage, but not believing any of it came about because of God.

The Torah, and the New Testament of course, is a collection of Aesop fables. Opening my Tanakh is like opening Bullfinch's mythology (though a good deal more boring in a lot of cases).

Also, I was being sarcastic about the therapy. I need a warning label.

[/quote]

So you are Jewish in the non-religious sense (Israeli heritage)? I don't understand these distinctions and besides, don't single out any particular religion (except Islam!) for criticism.

Actually, you were correct but my therapist agrees that my attitude is normal and healthy! Maybe he also has anger issues!!

Good to know you have rejected what must have been a very intense set of beliefs entwined with strong cultural values- must have been tricky to separate them...

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(December 7, 2011 at 5:48 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: [quote='happyinfidel' pid='213267' dateline='1323241025']
What is sky cake?

It is a humorous way to refer to religion.

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: Look, 'hate', 'poison', 'cancer' are your misunderstanding of my position. Religion is contemptible to educated people, I stand by that for the reasons stated;...

Sorry, I misstated your position, but only because extreme positions are more fun. Also, the title of the post says your extremism so I read your post as if you were raging and hating on religion.

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: ...no way (in these enlightened times) is it a genuine attempt to understand anything;...

This is not true; most religious people are sincere and their adherance to religion is their best effort to make sense of this world we live in. What you are saying is atheist equivalent of when someone says to me, "You can't REALLY be an atheist! There MUST be a God."

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: ...rather it is brainwashing & mass mind control for power and profit.

This is also false. You see, most of the clergy really believe they are doing a good thing.

(December 7, 2011 at 2:57 am)happyinfidel Wrote: Where there is EVIDENCE to support peoples' views I have no problem; show me that evidence!
I don't hate people for believing absurdities, just baffled as to HOW they convince themselves and WHY they have the need; the only answer I can find is they allow others to manipulate them through fear and superstition, usually implanted in childhood.
Sadly I admit it is utterly pointless debating religious freaks since they must refute science, evidence and logic in order to cling to their 'beliefs'.
Nice to talk, have a good day

Most of what you say here is great. I think there is a point to debating even the "freaks" of religion. Maybe YOU are the only one that will take the time to explain your ideas to them. I would say that it is certainly pointless to have those discussions unless you can keep your cool during them.


Exactly right, most R people and clergy DO believe in their actions and indeed much good is done by the church. However they interpret this as motivated by their religion but I contend that they would be motivated to goodness without religion, that being their nature.

'Making sense of the world'? As I said, understandable in primitive society but not where it is easy to inform oneself about the scientific method and particularly advances in evolutionary knowledge and genetics.

As for the brainwashing comment, look at the TV footage of poor kids in madrassas chanting verses of the koran while rocking like mental inmates- surely there is no other word for it??? (Gotta 'fes up here- islam I find especially repugnant.)

I was not able to open your Sky Cake video at first but did so later; highly amusing snd to the point- thanks!