(May 17, 2023 at 4:32 pm)Kingpin Wrote:

(May 17, 2023 at 3:33 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Do you really think that your morality only exists because of a god?

That's kind of sad.  

And without god you would be without hope?

Again, sad, really.

Yes I do believe that.  I believe morality (in the sense of pure objective, ground in truth morality) only exists if God exists.  Otherwise it is purely human desire/preferences.

Yes, what hope is there in a naturalistic framework?  Konrad Adenauer told Billy Graham that outside that resurrection of Jesus Christ he sees no other hope for mankind.

Again, I find this sad.

I think it's important for a person to have a sense of morality and hope that is internal.  If you have to be told to be either one it doesn't mean a whole lot beyond following some set of rules.

Part of the reason I don't follow the teachings of or about a god or gods.

(May 17, 2023 at 4:32 pm)Kingpin Wrote:

(May 17, 2023 at 3:33 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Do you really think that your morality only exists because of a god?

That's kind of sad.  

And without god you would be without hope?

Again, sad, really.

Yes I do believe that.  I believe morality (in the sense of pure objective, ground in truth morality) only exists if God exists.  Otherwise it is purely human desire/preferences.

Yes, what hope is there in a naturalistic framework?  Konrad Adenauer told Billy Graham that outside that resurrection of Jesus Christ he sees no other hope for mankind.

Those aren't the only possibilities.

(May 17, 2023 at 4:44 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:

(May 17, 2023 at 4:32 pm)Kingpin Wrote: Yes I do believe that.  I believe morality (in the sense of pure objective, ground in truth morality) only exists if God exists.  Otherwise it is purely human desire/preferences.

Yes, what hope is there in a naturalistic framework?  Konrad Adenauer told Billy Graham that outside that resurrection of Jesus Christ he sees no other hope for mankind.

Again, I find this sad.

I think it's important for a person to have a sense of morality and hope that is internal.  If you have to be told to be either one it doesn't mean a whole lot beyond following some set of rules.

Part of the reason I don't follow the teachings of or about a god or gods.

It ok that you find it sad, I find the opposite.  What you describe is simply each person is their own "God".  You find and define your own morality and own hope.  Gives no basis to judge anything else except that it's not your personal preference.  You may categorize Auschwitz as evil and Hitler killing himself as a lack of justice, but that's all it is.  Personal opinion.  I believe there is something greater, something eternal.  This world is finite.  I see evidence that leads me to believe in something beyond what I see.  That brings me eternal hope.  As an atheist, you prescribe that each person derives their own meaning.  I find mine in this, fulfilling the existential requirement of meaning in the atheistic framework, yet you deem it sad.  I find that odd.

(May 17, 2023 at 4:51 pm)Kingpin Wrote: Gives no basis to judge anything else except that it's not your personal preference. 

Strangely enough, the same situation one finds oneself in with a god whose will is not knowable to us.

(May 17, 2023 at 4:51 pm)Kingpin Wrote:

(May 17, 2023 at 4:44 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Again, I find this sad.

I think it's important for a person to have a sense of morality and hope that is internal.  If you have to be told to be either one it doesn't mean a whole lot beyond following some set of rules.

Part of the reason I don't follow the teachings of or about a god or gods.

It ok that you find it sad, I find the opposite.  What you describe is simply each person is their own "God".  You find and define your own morality and own hope.  Gives no basis to judge anything else except that it's not your personal preference.  You may categorize Auschwitz as evil and Hitler killing himself as a lack of justice, but that's all it is.  Personal opinion.  I believe there is something greater, something eternal.  This world is finite.  I see evidence that leads me to believe in something beyond what I see.  That brings me eternal hope.  As an atheist, you prescribe that each person derives their own meaning.  I find mine in this, fulfilling the existential requirement of meaning in the atheistic framework, yet you deem it sad.  I find that odd.

I start losing respect when Hitler gets pulled out of the bag of arguments for belief in God.

But, I digress.  When I was diagnosed with cancer, I had hope that the medical team I would find would be able to pull me through.  That hope was crucial for my prognosis.

When I had a heart attack I trusted (had hope, if you will) that the first responders and then the staff at the hospital would pull me through.  I was determined that they would and they did.  Again, my frame of mind was crucial to my recovery.

If you have to find those things in a god then you do you.  I don't have that need.  My 'faith' (if you will) is in my strength and the abilities of others.

(May 17, 2023 at 4:51 pm)Kingpin Wrote: It ok that you find it sad, I find the opposite.  What you describe is simply each person is their own "God".  You find and define your own morality and own hope.  Gives no basis to judge anything else except that it's not your personal preference.  You may categorize Auschwitz as evil and Hitler killing himself as a lack of justice, but that's all it is.  Personal opinion.  I believe there is something greater, something eternal.  This world is finite.  I see evidence that leads me to believe in something beyond what I see.  That brings me eternal hope.  As an atheist, you prescribe that each person derives their own meaning.  I find mine in this, fulfilling the existential requirement of meaning in the atheistic framework, yet you deem it sad.  I find that odd.

If you are coming in here with the intention of schooling a bunch of atheists in the awesomeness of believing in an absolute morality-giver, you are wasting your time.

(May 17, 2023 at 4:25 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(May 17, 2023 at 3:33 pm)KerimF Wrote: I said it after hearing that Jews are not supposed to be punished after death and no one mentioned there are earthly Jewish punishments.
Doesn't this mean there have no real rules to obey?!

There ARE real rules to obey - the mitzvot -, but the payoff for obedience is to live a good earthly life (there's a lot of ambiguity about what constitutes 'heaven' in a Jewish afterlife).

It took Christians and those plagiarizing Muslims to come up with the notion that not following the rules means you have to be punished forever. In Judaism, the punishment is to be lousy in the here-and-now, which seems punishment enough.

Boru

Anyway, humans are pre-programmed to create rules (the masters) or obey rules (the people).
This is the case in every period of time and almost in every region on earth. And by these man-made rules (based on instincts) humans serve the material world, by building it (in peace times) and destroying it (in war times). So, the war-peace cycle will exist as long humans exist.

So, if Jesus came to impose even one rule on humans, I wouldn't bother myself to know anything else about him because I am created just to love, not to create rules (by playing the master) or obeying rules (by being a follower in a formal group). And since I was teen, I used saying/believing that if living the Unconditional Love towards all others, good and evil, cannot protect my mortal living flesh, nothing in the world can do. So, I have no red lines that others shouldn't cross. And if I am not accepted to be a guest somewhere, I just leave the place in peace and shake off its dust of my feet

^Start shaking those feet.

You're a hobo, is what you're saying?

(May 15, 2023 at 3:00 pm)Kingpin Wrote: For all my non-believing friends.  I believe most of you are former believers or grew up in forced religion, etc.  Do you find yourself blanket/generalizing all "theists" in the same vein?  All who believe a God exists is silly, moronic?  Or do you take each theist is their own person and assess your thoughts towards them on how they respond/treat you?  Maybe it's a mix?

I only ask because I see a lot of ad hominem attacks in responses when responding to theists on here.  Personally, I don't care if someone calls me silly, moronic, etc. I'm geniunely curious if that's how you view all theists in general, if so why?

I don't really care what someone believes so long as they treat me decently and keep their beliefs out of our laws. I don't generalize about believers because I have many in my own family and understand that they are each individuals with their own outlooks.