(June 21, 2023 at 3:17 pm)FlatAssembler Wrote:

(June 21, 2023 at 2:16 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: define “feel pain”

I think we all know what we mean when we say "feel pain", there is no need to define it. Some things, such as "knowledge", are difficult to define, but we all know what they mean, and asking somebody to define it is derailing a discussion.

We all know what we mean when we say “we feel pain”.   You probably have no idea what you really mean when you say “fish feel pain”.    If you do, then you would answer and not deflect the question.

(June 22, 2023 at 1:14 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 21, 2023 at 3:17 pm)FlatAssembler Wrote: I think we all know what we mean when we say "feel pain", there is no need to define it. Some things, such as "knowledge", are difficult to define, but we all know what they mean, and asking somebody to define it is derailing a discussion.

We all know what we mean when we say “we feel pain”.   You probably have no idea what you really mean when you say “fish feel pain”.    If you do, then you would answer and not deflect the question.

That fish feel something uncomfortable to them when their body is damaged?

There's some nuance to the debate. Some would contend that's not pain. Just about every living thing responds to stimuli. Pain is on top of that. That's why we look for analog structure. The closer to us, either by lineage or structure, the more credible the supposition of pain. Personally, I take the most cautious position. If you're wondering whether or not it could feel pain, treat it like it can.

Take a look at slaughterhouse bmps over the past few decades. Quick kills, screens, noise suppression. None of it to make us feel better about it, they still have to rotate people through the positions. The cattle might not be aware anymore but we are. It's done because the product is better, end of. If just watching an animal in pain didn't suffice...that there are physical differences in the end product between an animal cruelly killed and an animal humanely slaughtered is proof enough for me that at least some animals are just as awash in chemicals and neural activity as we are under similar circumstances.

I'm particularly careful with fish...all my redneckbros laugh at my gear. I actually think there's something to the objection of whatever they're feeling as pain, as we understand pain - but it doesn't hurt to be nice - you've already got em hooked. They're fragile and not meant to be handled anyway. Whether you're trying to get them back in the water or onto a plate, handle like a carton of eggs and you'll achieve best results. I've got a customer that can spot bruised fish at a glance. It wouldn't surprise me if he had ethical objections to the mistreatment of livestock..but I also suspect that, like the slaughterhouse above, even if he didn't he'd still reject a bad ice pack.

(June 22, 2023 at 5:35 am)FlatAssembler Wrote:

(June 22, 2023 at 1:14 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: We all know what we mean when we say “we feel pain”.   You probably have no idea what you really mean when you say “fish feel pain”.    If you do, then you would answer and not deflect the question.

That fish feel something uncomfortable to them when their body is damaged?

What does “feel uncomfortable” mean?       Is there a subjective experience, or does it merely require a reaction?

(June 22, 2023 at 7:52 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There's some nuance to the debate.  Some would contend that's not pain.  Just about every living thing responds to stimuli.  Pain is on top of that.  That's why we look for analog structure.  The closer to us, either by lineage or structure, the more credible the supposition of pain.  Personally, I take the most cautious position.  If you're wondering whether or not it could feel pain, treat it like it can.

Take a look at slaughterhouse bmps over the past few decades.  Quick kills, screens, noise suppression.  None of it to make us feel better about it, they still have to rotate people through the positions.  The cattle might not be aware anymore but we are.  It's done because the product is better, end of.  If just watching an animal in pain didn't suffice...that there are physical differences in the end product between an animal cruelly killed and an animal humanely slaughtered is proof enough for me that at least some animals are just as awash in chemicals and neural activity as we are under similar circumstances.

I'm particularly careful with fish...all my redneckbros laugh at my gear.  I actually think there's something to the objection of whatever they're feeling as pain, as we understand pain - but it doesn't hurt to be nice - you've already got em hooked.  They're fragile and not meant to be handled anyway.  Whether you're trying to get them back in the water or onto a plate, handle like a carton of eggs and you'll achieve best results.  I've got a customer that can spot bruised fish at a glance.  It wouldn't surprise me if he had ethical objections to the mistreatment of livestock..but I also suspect that, like the slaughterhouse above, even if he didn't he'd still reject a bad ice pack.

The moderator of the Philosophical Vegan forum, brimstoneSalad, thinks similarly to you. He thinks that the philosophy of mind and neuroscience is mostly irrelevant to ethics, short of a proof beyond reasonable doubt that some animal doesn't feel pain (which he thinks is proven for bivalves, but not for naked mole rats). He thinks that the reason human beings have rights is not because we are absolutely certain they are sentient, because we cannot be absolutely certain of that, as science can't prove solipsism wrong. So he thinks animals have rights as long as we cannot be reasonably certain they don't feel pain. And he thinks it hasn't been proven beyond reasonable doubt that fish or insects don't feel pain, so they should also have rights.

(June 22, 2023 at 9:43 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 22, 2023 at 5:35 am)FlatAssembler Wrote: That fish feel something uncomfortable to them when their body is damaged?

What does “feel uncomfortable” mean?       Is there a subjective experience, or does it merely require a reaction?

Subjective experience, of course.

A lot of animals have all sorts of legal protection. More than human beings in some parts of the world. I’m not sure I think any animal should have human rights….but I’m willing to negotiate with any animal that slides up and asks for them.

If I back up and accidentally step on one of my dogs paws, they sure react like they are in pain. They pull back, they yelp. Lucky for them I am pretty careful, especially when in the kitchen, and I don't weigh much.

Have you ever seen a dog or cat with a broken limb? You don't think they feel pain?

Do you suppose there's a reason why a veterinarian uses an anesthetic before cutting into a dog for a reason other than to keep it still?

I have helped dad spay and neuter animals. Even when knocked out, when the ovaries or testes are handled to be cut free...the animals still moan.

Looking at this thread, it was actually the pineal gland that Descartes considered the seat of the soul.

And, for the record, neither the pineal or the pituitary gland has anything to do with the ability to feel pain.

If you're looking into trying to disprove Non-Cartesian dualism, just look closely at his Discourses on Method. Descartes' goal was to doubt everything and try to rebuild knowledge. He did a good job once he got to "I think, therefore I am," but, frankly, everything after that just seems like little more than a Hail Mary to save his own ass from potentially being treated as a heretic.

(June 22, 2023 at 3:41 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: If I back up and accidentally step on one of my dogs paws, they sure react like they are in pain. They pull back, they yelp. Lucky for them I am pretty careful, especially when in the kitchen, and I don't weigh much.

Have you ever seen a dog or cat with a broken limb? You don't think they feel pain?

Do you suppose there's a reason why a veterinarian uses an anesthetic before cutting into a dog for a reason other than to keep it still?

I have helped dad spay and neuter animals. Even when knocked out, when the ovaries or testes are handled to be cut free...the animals still moan.

No, I am not claiming that dogs and cats don't feel pain, I am being critical of that claim. Descartes famously argued that no animal except human beings feel pain. In my opinion, that suggestion was ridiculous back then, and it's even more ridiculous now.

Whether animals with much simpler brains than cats and dogs, such as fishes or insects, can feel pain is another question entirely.