I think one of the difficulties faced by ugly lonely people is that so many folk find it very difficult to appreciate that aesthetics and luck play so big a factor in relationships.

People are often saturated with the false messages that there is someone for everyone, that looks aren't important, that character beats all, and that if you're unable to find a relationship it must be because of some fault of yours - you're too picky, you lack confidence, you don't try hard enough, you must be a bad person etc.

Even my sex and relationship therapist found this hard to accept. She was somewhat incredulous that I had been so ill treated through my life because of my looks. She would act confused saying things like, 'but you're so confident, positive, intelligent etc?' And I'd have to remind her that the issue wasn't my personality but that I was physically unattractive. At one time she thought that I would have greater success on fetish dating apps because she thought that they would be less interested in appearance. Of course, the results were the same as for tinder and bumble etc. Many men can go on a dating app and get a dozen likes or less over months. My girlfriend can get hundreds in a couple hours, lol. Looks (and gender and sexuality) dominate.

(August 24, 2023 at 2:49 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: I think one of the difficulties faced by ugly lonely people is that so many folk find it very difficult to appreciate that aesthetics and luck play so big a factor in relationships.

People are often saturated with the false messages that there is someone for everyone, that looks aren't important, that character beats all, and that if you're unable to find a relationship it must be because of some fault of yours - you're too picky, you lack confidence, you don't try hard enough, you must be a bad person etc.

Even my sex and relationship therapist found this hard to accept.  She was somewhat incredulous that I had been so ill treated through my life because of my looks.  She would act confused saying things like, 'but you're so confident, positive, intelligent etc?'  And I'd have to remind her that the issue wasn't my personality but that I was physically unattractive.  At one time she thought that I would have greater success on fetish dating apps because she thought that they would be less interested in appearance.  Of course, the results were the same as for tinder and bumble etc.  Many men can go on a dating app and get a dozen likes or less over months.  My girlfriend can get hundreds in a couple hours, lol.  Looks (and gender and sexuality) dominate.

For casual dating, flings, and all that, yes, things like good looks will matter a lot. People with lots of options tend to be really picky on dating apps. Trying to pick up girls in bars or nightclubs is also going to be a bad idea.

But it doesn't mean all hope is lost for people who are deemed physically unattractive by society, because - when it comes to serious relationships - things like connection, compatibility, comfort are qualities that matter a lot to many people, even moreso than looks, charisma, and wealth in many cases. I've seen a lot of people who aren't exactly attractive physically be in relationships. And there are a lot of physically attractive people who have never been in a relationship even while they're nearing their thirties or fourties. Sometimes it's all about just being somewhere at the right place and time and having a constant connection with someone so that eventually they grow on you and you start to have feelings for them. You might even be deemed unattractive "universally" but someone will still find something cute and adorably quirky about you and love you for it.

Incels need to learn to take ownership and not continue to blame others for their faliures. They don't need to be the hottest guy in town to be in relationships, but they need to be pleasant, genuine, the opposite of entitled and stop trying to be something they're not. Having a good presentation also helps of course, but pretty much anyone can do that if they put in the effort.

Also, you have a girlfriend and was once married, lol. You're a bad example for the point you've been making here.

"For casual dating, flings, and all that, yes, things like good looks will matter a lot" - Yes. But think of how important this is. Serious relationships often start from casual dating; confidence, social experience, and sexual development are often built through early dating success; and a lot of social judgement can be placed onto people depending upon their success in this realm. It's not like having, or not having, something 'that matters a lot' in this area is a trivial issue.

"But it doesn't mean all hope is lost for people who are deemed physically unattractive by society" - Sure. There is always the chance of something changing. But the question is really about a) plausibility (someone wins the lottery every week, don't they?), and b) the suffering incurred during the wait for those winning lottery numbers.

"When it comes to serious relationships - things like connection, compatibility, comfort are qualities that matter a lot to many people, even moreso than looks, charisma, and wealth in many cases" - totally agree. But since practically no one dates someone they aren't physically attracted to, or find repulsive, all those things are locked behind the door of a minimum looks threshold. You have to be at least non-repulsive, and usually attractive, to someone for them to even want to get to develop a romantic relationship with you. Relationships that have no sexual attraction or physical chemistry between partners are miserable affairs that I wouldn't recommend to anyone. There has to be mutual sexual attraction as well as the compatibility etc. And that's a problem for those who aren't attractive to the majority of people.

"I've seen a lot of people who aren't exactly attractive physically be in relationships" - Sure. Most people are average. But how many ugly people have you seen in successful relationships? And more importantly, for every ugly person in a successful relationship how many aren't? One thing I've noticed about lonely people (all genders) is that they are often quite invisible. They are sat home alone, or drink in late night bars, and so on. They go unnoticed.

"And there are a lot of physically attractive people who have never been in a relationship even while they're nearing their thirties or twenties" - I have only encountered attractive 30+ year olds who have never had a relationship if it is either by choice (maybe religious influence), or because they have social issues, or they are asexual.

"Sometimes it's all about just being somewhere at the right place and time"- Luck is the biggest factor here for sure.

"You might even be deemed unattractive "universally" but someone will still find something cute and adorably quirky about you and love you for it" - I think this a false romantic message. There are no guarantees. In a world of 8 billion it might be technically true that at least someone will find you attractive, but in practical terms the chances of meeting that person in your area at the right time is low. I think many underestimate how many people live and die lonely without ever having a successful relationship.

"Incels need to learn to take ownership and not continue to blame others for their faliures." I agree. But I'm talking more broadly than incels. I'm talking unattractive and lonely people in general. I think you are here falling into something akin to victim blaming. If someone is ugly or highly socially awkward it isn't their fault, it's just bad genetic luck. It's not about blaming them, or about blaming others for not finding them attractive. It's just a roll of the dice. No blame for anyone at all.

"They don't need to be the hottest guy in town to be in relationships, but they need to be pleasant, genuine, the opposite of entitled and stop trying to be something they're not. Having a good presentation" - Agreed. But they also need to be found physically attractive by some people. They need to meet a minimum looks threshold, and the more attractive someone is the easier their dating life will be.

As for me being a bad example for my point - I don't consider/rate myself as ugly. I'm a 4 or 5. And my lived experience, even as that slightly below average type, is that I was bullied extensively between 11-20 for my looks (which left me mentally ill); I married a woman I wasn't attracted to and had a highly toxic, sexless, miserable relationship (which made me even more mentally ill); and then I got a highly unlikely relationship with a mentally ill girlfriend who has a thing for much older people who I was attracted to when I was 46. That is the sum total of my relationships.

If being bullied into illness and not having a mutually attracted relationship until middle age when not even being as ugly as some is an argument against my point, I dread to think of the miserable lives of those who do support my point.

Other posters have been nicer than I can possibly be about incel shit. I'll only say that they're no such thing as an incel. Those boys are voluntarily celibate.

I think there are two basic ways to solve the broader problem of loneliness. One, improve ourselves - two, cast a wider net. It may be that some of us are gifted with better genetics than others, but that's just a starting point. I'm betting you could get more ripped than a guy with great genetics who doesn't work out. That you could be a funnier process comedian than a talented off the cuff shittalker. It's our decision to do or not do those things that we are held accountable for, especially when we start complaining about the suitability of other people....not our genetics.

The second thing explains itself...but, for most people, has an upward limit of no more than 50% of the population. Pretty bad starting odds.

(August 24, 2023 at 1:07 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Im not convinced its true that these lonely men only want a narrow type of women. From my experience talking to such folks, it seems that they want to have relationships with women they find attractive. Which, as far as I can tell, is the same as 99% of allosexuals.

I really do think it's siimpy that most lonely people are either ugly or social inept (or both). And that's just bad luck.

What I said is that just some of them only want a narrow type of women. I was using the supreme gentlemen, Elliot Roger as an example. I've listened to several podcasts on him and read up on him.

Admittedly this is just what I've perceived, I don't know his entire history at attempts, but it seems like he basically felt rejected because he would turn up to a social event full of very attractive women and be annoyed when they didn't come onto him.

He wanted a very specific thing to happen and when it didn't, nothing else was good enough.

The cause of that probably is being socially inept aswell.

Sure. Some people are lonely because they have the combination of wanting something very narrow and specific and lacking the ability to obtain that.

But that's not my impression of the majority of lonely people, even the majority of BP folks.

My impression is that no matter how wide they casted their net or how ripped they got they'd still be unfuckables. Completely voluntarily unfuckable.

OTOH, it seems like a pretty good strategy for making bros.

(August 24, 2023 at 6:06 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Other posters have been nicer than I can possibly be about incel shit. I'll only say that they're no such thing as an incel. Those boys are voluntarily celibate.

I think there are two basic ways to solve the broader problem of loneliness. One, improve ourselves - two, cast a wider net. It may be that some of us are gifted with better genetics than others, but that's just a starting point. I'm betting you could get more ripped than a guy with great genetics who doesn't work out. That you could be a funnier process comedian than a talented off the cuff shittalker. It's our decision to do or not do those things that we are held accountable for, especially when we start complaining about the suitability of other people....not our genetics.

The second thing explains itself...but, for most people, has an upward limit of no more than 50% of the population. Pretty bad starting odds.

I agree that incel is a misnomer. What they really desire is sexual validation from people they find attractive.

I think self improvement will work wonders for some. For others it won't make a big difference (height, facial structure, baldness, teeth, neurodiversity, mental illness etc are very hard to change through effort).

Casting a wider net likewise. Some people aren't attractive to the majority of others. Also, does this imply that people can affect by will who they find attractive? I've never found that to be true for most people. Sexual attraction seems largely outside of conscious control. I certainly could never change who I was attracted or not attracted to even though I tried a lot.

What percentage of lonely people who have not been successful in dating have been the cause of their own misery?

Are 100% lonely people to blame for their own failure?
Or merely 50%
Or less?

(August 24, 2023 at 8:18 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: What percentage of lonely people who have not been successful in dating have been the cause of their own misery?

Are 100% lonely people to blame for their own failure?
Or merely 50%
Or less?

I think questions like this depends how deep you want to go into it.

You might believe no one is responsible for their decisions because they're not responsible for being born into their circumstances, or having the brain and mindset they have.

I don't think you can easily put a percentage on it world wide, because of all the different cultures and circumstances that exist out there.

I think if you live in the western world, you've reasonably tried to improve yourself, you're not aiming unreasonably high, you've tried every dating site/method, also you've tried for years, then you can probably say you've exhausted your options available and it's not your lack of effort that's causing you failure.

Time is a very important factor. I'm convinced a lot of these incels are just simply teen virgins who are learning how to socially navigate, maybe they're a bit slower at doing it than average.