I totally agree that many lonely bullied kids don't grow up to hold reprehensible views.

But lonely bullied kids are more susceptible to radicalisation than others.

And lonely bullied kids would be better off if they weren't lonely and bullied.

And society would be better off without lonely bullied kids.

Why am I arguing for social change even though I'm a materialist atheist who believes freewill doesn't exist? Because I'm determined to, of course.

(August 25, 2023 at 1:05 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I totally agree that many lonely bullied kids don't grow up to hold reprehensible views.

But lonely bullied kids are more susceptible to radicalisation than others.

And lonely bullied kids would be better off if they weren't lonely and bullied.

And society would be better off without lonely bullied kids.

So do they have no agency in their decision to be misogynists?

(August 25, 2023 at 1:05 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: Why am I arguing for social change even though I'm a materialist atheist who believes freewill doesn't exist?  Because I'm determined to, of course.

... and apparently others are determined to hold their views as well.

I guess the same argument is often had about crime: Why try to reduce poverty and drug addiction and dysfunctional families and poor education and bad housing etc etc because all criminaks have agency and choose to break the law.

I see things more in terms of harm reduction, and that since humans don't have freewill it's best to treat crime more as a disease or social problem.

(August 25, 2023 at 5:53 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: From my limited reading on loneliness it seems that it is more harmful than smoking 10 cigarettes a day, and is often connected to all kinds of deleterious lifestyle issues like addiction and suicide.  It's a big personal and social problem.

I also note that chronic emotional loneliness seems basically incurable.  It might well be that if you're ostracised during your formative years then your brain gets irreparably damaged.

I really do think this issue need to be taken more seriously and addressed with greater sympathy and a mature harm-reduction approach.

Personality plays a role here as well. People with anxious attachment styles are prone to feel loneliness moreso than others partly because of internal psychological factors. It's not just due to social factors.

Anyway, when I talk of incels, I'm not talking about merely lonely people who can't get laid or be in a relationship. I'm attacking the mindset of those who rage against women and blame them for their issues.

Interesting point about personality.

And yes, there's a type of lonely bitter man who becomes sexist and aggrieved and blames women for their fate, and that's what people tend to think of with the term incel.

As I've already suggested, I think those communities should be clamped down upon, and various measures put in place to prevent ugly, lonely men joining their ranks or being radicalised by them (same with femcels, though they're a much smaller and less dangerous group).

(August 25, 2023 at 2:21 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I guess the same argument is often had about crime:  Why try to reduce poverty and drug addiction and dysfunctional families and poor education and bad housing etc etc because all criminaks have agency and choose to break the law.

I see things more in terms of harm reduction, and that since humans don't have freewill it's best to treat crime more as a disease or social problem.

I'm struggling to find where I argued that we should do nothing. Help a brotha out by linking to a specific quote?

Otherwise, you could always, you know, shit-can the strawmanning.

It seemed the vibe behind your statement about no agency. I carried on the thought. Apologies if you think that was a strawman, I didn't think it was.

Please expand your thought on how their agency connects to the idea of helping them? What do you think would be useful political and social approaches to reducing loneliness for ugly and socially inept people, and preventing incel radicalisation?

(August 26, 2023 at 9:12 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: It seemed the vibe behind your statement about no agency.  I carried on the thought.  Apologies if you think that was a strawman, I didn't think it was.

It is, by definition. You need to stop doing that. If you aren't sure what I am getting at, just fuckin' ask. But do not impute to me views I don't hold. That's rude and I will not tolerate it.

(August 26, 2023 at 9:12 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Please expand your thought on how their agency connects to the idea of helping them?  What do you think would be useful political and social approaches to reducing loneliness for ugly and socially inept people, and  preventing incel radicalisation?

I'd say teaching them that self-worth comes from inside, not from without, at an early age. Along with that, teaching them that women are every bit as human as they are, and that no one is entitled to anyone else's body, time, or attention.

See how easy that was?

Fair enough.

So when you see an ugly lonely teenager, they should recieve counselling in their school, the primary focus of which is that self worth is internal and women are human.

Anything else?

And how effective do you think that will be in curing their loneliness?

(August 26, 2023 at 12:51 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: Fair enough.

So when you see an ugly lonely teenager, they should recieve counselling in their school, the primary focus of which is that self worth is internal and women are human.

Anything else?

We parents should be teaching our children better that looks are no reason to bully or ostracize, and that everyone deserves respect unless and until they squander it with their behavior.