(August 30, 2023 at 9:57 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Saying gay sex is wrong harms gay people (and thus society) who might grow up in an Islamic household and have inculcated within them an undue sense of shame or guilt.  They may try to change or affect their sexuality or behaviour to fit in with this teaching.  It also causes offence without justifying reason.

Additionally, by saying gay sex is wrong in an authoritative text or within an authoritative institution makes it far more likely that people will act on that belief in all manner of harmful ways, from voting for politicians who run on a platform of bigotry and try to enact discriminatory laws all the way to Islamic societies throwing gays off rooftops.  Thus saying gay sex is wrong increases the likelihood of increased suffering in the same sort of way saying smoking is good for you or Jews are evil does.  

It is reprehensible speech for all these reasons.

Those facts are only incidentally related and not necessarily related. You can't say John is evil because he might rape a teenager. Only that John is evil if he has or will rape a teenager. And likewise, someone raised in a Christian household that embraces hate the sin and not the sinner, may grow up feeling loved and experience no shame or guilt or regret about being gay. And beyond that, this all depends upon feeling those things about being gay is wrong, which you've simply assumed. Just as thinking that society would benefit if religion was eliminated is only moral if it is actually true, if gay sex actually is wrong, there is nothing immoral about stating that fact.

You think it's only incidentally related that Islam declares that gay sex is wrong with divine authority and that gay children growing up in Islamic households have an increased likelihood to feel shame about their sexuality, or that Islamic societies have an increased likelihood to discriminate against gays.

That seems implausible to me.

Do you really sincerely believe that there's no connection between Islamic teaching on gay sex and, say, the anti-gay laws seen in many Islamic countries?

Your second argument is that if gay sex actually is a moral truth then it wouldn't be immoral to teach it. Correct. But I don't believe it is a moral truth. I think on this it is your burden to demonstrate that it is a moral truth. That's a very difficult burden to shoulder.

(August 30, 2023 at 10:14 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: You think it's only incidentally related that Islam declares that gay sex is wrong with divine authority and that gay children growing up in Islamic households have an increased likelihood to feel shame about their sexuality, or that Islamic societies have an increased likelihood to discriminate against gays.

That seems implausible to me.  

Do you really sincerely believe that there's no connection between Islamic teaching on gay sex and, say, the anti-gay laws seen in many Islamic countries?  

Your second argument is that if gay sex actually is a moral truth then it wouldn't be immoral to teach it.  Correct.  But I don't believe it is a moral truth.  I think on this it is your burden to demonstrate that it is a moral truth.  That's a very difficult burden to shoulder.

I didn't claim it was a moral truth, only that it might be. I have no burden of proof in that case. You, on the other hand, do have a hefty burden of proof.

As to your first part, saying that something is "likely" is an implicit acknowledgment that the two are not necessarily related. If it's likely so then it's possibly not, which breaks your argument. Again we don't act on what people might do, because if we did we would all be in jail. That's not a valid argument.

More to the point, I think it's wrong to say that religion is harmful without it being a demonstrable fact. In the same way that saying being gay results in guilt and shame, saying that makes religious people feel bad. Maybe saying religion is bad for society is immoral.

So if I teach to a billion people that pedophillia is good you would be ok with that teaching and not call that teaching bad because it could possibly be a moral truth?

And even if it was a clear fact that the majority of those billion adherents acted on that teaching by engaging in pedophillia you'd further defend the teaching because the highly likely influence of the teaching on the behaviour doesn't necessarily produce that behaviour in every adhenret?

If you think that I just think we have radically different moral compasses. And I will just do what I can to defeat your repugnant viewpoint in the real world. As far as this discussion goes I'm happy to accept the impasse of us having very different ethical preferences. I prefer a world without religions influencing people to be pedophiles or kill gay people. Your mileage may vary. I make no claim to anything more than my personal prefernece for such a world.

(August 30, 2023 at 10:26 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: So if I teach to a billion people that pedophillia is good you would be ok with that teaching and not call that teaching bad because it could possibly be a moral truth?

And even if it was a clear fact that the majority of those billion adherents acted on that teaching by engaging in pedophillia you'd further defend the teaching because the highly likely influence of the teaching on the behaviour doesn't necessarily produce that behaviour in every adhenret?

If you think that I just think we have radically different moral compasses.  And I will just do what I can to defeat your repugnant viewpoint in the real world.  As far as this discussion goes I'm happy to accept the impasse of us having very different ethical preferences.  I prefer a world without religions influencing people to be pedophiles or kill gay people.  Your mileage may vary.  I make no claim to anything more than my personal prefernece for such a world.

I would call that teaching bad if I could demonstrate it, or get some kind of general consensus in society that it is bad. Otherwise my opinion isn't justified.

Likewise, I would call it good if the reverse were true.

Now, back to the question, and the burden of proof which you are so unhappy about.

So:
a) You think moral facts can be demonstrated to be true
b) You think general consensus is enough to make something an objective moral truth

I find those very strange views, and I suspect you don't know what is meant by an objective moral truth.

As for the burden of proof regarding that religious teaching makes it more likely that religious believers will behave accordingly, I simply state what I stated elsewhere to you:

My case that Islamic/Qur'anic teaching makes it more likely that Muslims will behave in accordance with that teaching I'd say was self-evident, though it could be backed up by the amazingly close correspondence between Islamic teachings and behaviour by Muslims and Islamic societies and asking Muslims whether they do things because Allah tells them. In my personal chats with Muslims all did things explicitly because of Islamic teachings.

If you don't accept that there's a self-evident connection between religious dogmas and religious behaviour, even in the face of history, current politics, and common sense; or if you feel the need to stretch your defense of Islamic teachings on GM to asking me to provide survey evidence that most Muslims say that their behaviour is affected by Islamic teaching, then I simply believe you are being quite unreasonable.

And as I told you in the other thread, that wasn't what you were arguing. Nor have I argued either of the things you attribute to me.

It seems that you know how to do only two things, a) misrepresent people, and b) shift the burden of proof.

I'm willing to grant a possible miscommunication, though I've tried to be as sincere and accurate as possible.

So to be clear, we agree that the Islamic teaching that gay sex is wrong makes it more likely that Muslims will enact homophobic laws and practices and speech in accordance with that teaching, yes?

(August 29, 2023 at 6:53 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 4:57 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Islam seems 'backwards' (your term) to me.

The people who explained to you are probably "the cause".
Islam is a way of life stating that a person is a mere creation, they're here on this earth to be tested, the exam maker is documenting every move they do; even their thoughts.

A direct verse from the Quran (the exam maker's guide for humans) says about life:

Quote:Sura 67, The Quran:
https://quran.com/67?startingVerse=2

(2) ˹He is the One˺ Who created death and life in order to test which of you is best in deeds. And He is the Almighty, All-Forgiving.

Probably, you think that this celestial guide -the Quran- is trashing women, but surprisengly the author of this guide -God- says:

Quote:Sura 49, The Quran:
https://quran.com/49?startingVerse=13

(13) O humanity! Indeed, We created you from a male and a female, and made you into peoples and tribes so that you may ˹get to˺ know one another. Surely the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous among you. Allah is truly All-Knowing, All-Aware.1

In another Sura he says:

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
https://quran.com/4?startingVerse=32

(32) And do not crave what Allah has given some of you over others. Men will be rewarded according to their deeds and women ˹equally˺ according to theirs. Rather, ask Allah for His bounties. Surely Allah has ˹perfect˺ knowledge of all things.

Notice that this Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. Until this day, there are humans who deny the rights of women ! including so many Muslims who ignored verses like this.

The Quran is not backward. What is backward is the books called "Hadith books".
You must ask whoever speaks to you from Islam about their source: is it a Quranic verse, or a Hadith ?

Holy fucking crispy critters, but you've been completely mind fucked, haven't you?!?

Do you revel in being nothing more than the jam between your gawd's toes?!?

When I first read the Quran the bit where it gives instructions for husbands beating their wives kinda leapt out a bit.

"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great." - Surah An Nisa Ayat 34 (Arthur John Arberry English translation).