(November 18, 2023 at 5:08 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don’t think it would be living a lie so much as being earnestly wrong about a thing.  We do that a lot.

Can't define it. Can't demonstrate it. Can't implement it.

Reminds me of that oldie.

"Smells like it. Looks like it. Tastes like it. Lucky I didn't step in it."

(November 18, 2023 at 2:52 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 18, 2023 at 12:27 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: I see. Anyway, I have another question:

If free will does not exist, and there is evidence that it does not, do you all think that people are living lives under the belief that they do not understand that they are not really exercising free will? In other words, do you think people are living a lie in terms of thinking free will exists?

Of course, people are wrong all the time about lots of things -- and live life, and make decisions on the basis of wrong information all the time.

I'd be interested in seeing this evidence in detail.

Um, what evidence?

I was only asking a question.

(November 18, 2023 at 5:08 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don’t think it would be living a lie so much as being earnestly wrong about a thing.  We do that a lot.

If you say so.

Well, what do you think?

Is there a difference between implicitly trusting the contents of an inaccurate or incomplete report and living a lie?

(November 19, 2023 at 12:05 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Well, what do you think?  

Is there a difference between implicitly trusting the contents of an inaccurate or incomplete report and living a lie?

Well yeah of course there's a difference.

(November 18, 2023 at 9:50 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote:

(November 18, 2023 at 2:52 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Of course, people are wrong all the time about lots of things -- and live life, and make decisions on the basis of wrong information all the time.

I'd be interested in seeing this evidence in detail.

Um, what evidence?

I was only asking a question.

"Um", no, you made this claim as well: "If free will does not exist, and there is evidence that it does not [...]"

I want to see that evidence, if you might provide it that'd be great.

"Um", lol. Look at you getting all snarky 'n' shit.

(November 18, 2023 at 5:08 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don’t think it would be living a lie so much as being earnestly wrong about a thing.  We do that a lot.

Why pass up the chance to insinuate that people who disagree with you are self-deceived?

Sure, but on it's own it's an evergreen observation.

Even if we do have a free will, it's absolutely nothing like what we imagined it to be, nothing like what it reports itself as. The entire project of compatibilism is to establish how our will may not be free but it's free enough for brain work.

I suppose, though, we'd have to allow that beliefs about free will may not be self deception. Maybe it's cultural. We're incredibly suggestable. It's not just that we can be convinced. We can be conditioned. To the point that we don't know where our identity ends and the product begins.

(November 19, 2023 at 10:21 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 18, 2023 at 9:50 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: Um, what evidence?

I was only asking a question.

"Um", no, you made this claim as well: "If free will does not exist, and there is evidence that it does not [...]"

I want to see that evidence, if you might provide it that'd be great.

"Um", lol. Look at you getting all snarky 'n' shit.

I was not being snarky, at all. And furthermore, I was not trying to start a debate or try to prove anything, too, with evidence. If you must know, neuroscience says that it is the subconsciousness that determines human actions, not the conscious mind. Still, I am sure I know what you are trying to do, and you did the same with @bucky Ball earlier on this thread. I am not falling for that a second time.

Because I was not trying to cause a debate, and because I can see where this is going, you're not going to be shown evidence. I was not asking for a debate, I was only asking a question. I am not doing this.

The beauty of hypothetical stipulations. We find ourselves in some future situation where the issue has been demonstratively settled. There is no free will. The concern in the hypothetical being that this could amount to living a lie, or having lived a lie. I think, at worst, we found out we were wrong about yet another thing. The experience should be familiar to us by now.

Might we then choose to live as though we had a free will knowing that we did not? I brought up theological fatalism in this thread (or maybe another?) recently. I think that what people do in response to finding out that they were not actually free to x as they thought they were is to accept some form of fatalism, if not outright absurdism. We've vacillated over the entirety of our written history on this issue - there's no reason to think it began then, and that larger negotiation plays out in our own lives, intimately. We seem to have an instinctive need to push and measure those boundaries. To understand the world we live in. To exert control, by whatever means.

One of my favorite comments on the issue I picked up here, I modify it, though I can't recall who it was. The notion that..at least in the sense of a classical free will or even a christian free will - we find ourselves living in a world where it was more salient to prevent us from freely willing to jump to the moon than to commit horrific acts. We weren't satisfied with that state of affairs, though, so we created surveillance and support systems. We built rockets to take us to the moon.

So, no, I don't think it would mean that we lived a lie nor would I expect us to choose to live one. We've been in that place before and we've been able to conceive of ourselves and our world without a free will and still function as a species, as a society. Hell, as an organizing tool, fatalism is top notch. We sneak it kisses everytime we think about our destiny. Private destiny, national destiny. As powerful as those things are there have been people (and still are people) that accept some form of fatalism but rage against it's inevitability. Try to throw every wrench at every gear. Our boundary setting and pushing is full of lost causes.

(November 19, 2023 at 11:45 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The beauty of hypothetical stipulations.  We find ourselves in some future situation where the issue has been demonstratively settled.  There is no free will.  The concern in the hypothetical being that this could amount to living a lie, or having lived a lie.  I think, at worst, we found out we were wrong about yet another thing.  The experience should be familiar to us by now.  

Might we then choose to live as though we had a free will knowing that we did not?  I brought up theological fatalism in this thread (or maybe another?) recently.  I think that what people do in response to finding out that they were not actually free to x as they thought they were is to accept some form of fatalism, if not outright absurdism.  We've vacillated over the entirety our our written history on this issue - there's no reason to think it began then, and that larger negotiation plays out in our own lives, intimately.  We seem to have an instinctive need to push and measure those boundaries.  To understand the world we live in.  To exert control, by whatever means.  

One of my favorite comments on the issue I picked up here, I modify it, though I can't recall who it was.  The notion that..at least in the sense of a classical free will or even a christian free will - we find ourselves living in a world where it was more salient to prevent us from freely willing to jump to the moon than to commit horrific acts.  We weren't satisfied with that state of affairs, though, so we created surveillance and support systems.  We built rockets to take us to the moon.  

So, no, I don't think it would mean that we lived a lie nor would I expect us to choose to live one.  We've been in that place before and we've been able to conceive of ourselves and our world without a free will and still function as a species, as a society.  Hell, as an organizing tool, fatalism is top notch.  We sneak it kisses everytime we think about our destiny.  Private destiny, national destiny.

Oh yeah...

What I was trying to say, was that many people in the world believe in free will, but with it most likely not existing, well, people think they have free will, but they do not, since it is said by neuroscience that it is the subconsciousness deterministically making the "decisions" we make rather than full conscious control. I was wondering how many people would feel if they realized (somehow) that free will did not really exist. That said, countries like the United States of America and their governments are based on free will, it seems, and lead people to believe it exists. I do not really think people would be happy with the government or whoever if they realized that free will is not really a thing that exists, not that it would be the end of the world, that is.

So yeah, as much as it would not really be living a lie as you said, that is what I was actually wondering.