(December 3, 2023 at 5:07 pm)h4ym4n Wrote:

(December 2, 2023 at 12:31 pm)Ahriman Wrote: I guess I could try explaining how this works, but I'm not going to. It would be like trying to teach Spanish to a cat.

Because it only makes sense to you, right?

Well, like Spanish, it makes sense to a lot more people than just me, but I wouldn't want to risk giving an inadequate explanation.

(December 3, 2023 at 6:30 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(December 3, 2023 at 5:07 pm)h4ym4n Wrote: Because it only makes sense to you, right?

Well, like Spanish, it makes sense to a lot more people than just me, but I wouldn't want to risk giving an inadequate explanation.

Do you know someone better than you to explain?

Or is it that it only makes sense to you..

(December 2, 2023 at 2:35 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote: Hi Boru,

Sorry for the delay. Thanks for playing along and thinking this through.

(November 29, 2023 at 7:51 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: But if our values come from Christian history (they don’t, but I’ll play along), then it absolutely doesn’t matter if God exists, from a moral/ethical standpoint.

Interesting point.

(First a small flight of fancy. It makes me think of a time travel paradox situation. (Bodies didn’t address theirs. Travelers did.) If our values come from Christian history, then it doesn’t matter if God exists or not. We have those values regardless. But would we have Christian history if God didn’t exist? Dammit Boru! I’m a statistician, not a philosopher. :-)

I am contending that it is our Christian history that gives us our values. And, obviously to my thinking, we have that history because God exists.

You’re point is that if we have the Christian virtues, then we don’t need God to exist anymore, assuming that he ever did. And I would say yes. Yes we do.

Consider, in the last 100 to 200 years, and the last 60 in particular, we have moved from a Christian society to a post-christian society. The 19th-century poet Matthew Arnold once spoke of the “long, withdrawing roar” of the “Sea of Faith,” leaving us with “neither joy, nor love, nor light.”

Those values have still been with us but, as I see it, are going away, getting replaced by greater selfishness, antagonism, etc. The world is not getting better without that Christian worldview.

If God didn’t exist, then even though, somehow, the Christian worldview lasted that long anyway, it will soon die out. Without the Christian worldview, what is there to get us back on track? And not only without that worldview, but replaced by many, many worldviews, almost to the point where everyone has their own unique worldview. It seems to me that it will be impossible to keep those virtues. Who will define what is inhumane, when everyone has a different idea of what humane is? How will we have compassion for victims when everyone is a victim? How can we have community and brotherhood, when our culture fights for radical individualism? I don’t know.

On the other hand, if God does exist, then (try not to do a spit-take here) His plan of salvation is constantly at work. He is letting us wallow in our own sinfulness, like He did with the Israelites in the OT. We Christians have to recognize that we have lost our moral vision. You all say this all the time: When you see how Christians act, why would you want to be Christian?

If Christians can stop being buttheads (can I say that here?) and start being Christ-like, then we can again be a light to the world. Now back to the point, we could not do that on our own. On our own, we will always be buttheads, where eventually, we’ll be going to hell in a bucket, and not even enjoying the ride. As evidence of this I show you the last 200, 100, 60 years.

But because God exists, He can guide us back to those virtues, (and I say He is).

For today, no, it may not matter whether God exists as long as the people around you have that worldview. But tomorrow they may not, and then it matters.

“You’re point is that if we have the Christian virtues, then we don’t need God to exist anymore, assuming that he ever did. And I would say yes. Yes we do.”

Hey Simp,

Is yahweh a christian?

(December 3, 2023 at 6:09 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote:

(December 3, 2023 at 6:05 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's actually a good version of precisely the question that has caused a meltdown.  

Are we talking about something, or is the talking the something?

use it in your next trap  ;-)  haha ;-)

Can gods be trapped?  If not...then it's just something that you're doing, like an idiot.  Agreed?

(December 3, 2023 at 7:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(December 3, 2023 at 6:09 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: use it in your next trap  ;-)  haha ;-)

Can gods be trapped?  If not...then it's just something that you're doing, like an idiot.  Agreed?

Nope ;-)

Take care

(December 3, 2023 at 7:10 pm)h4ym4n Wrote:

(December 2, 2023 at 2:35 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote: Hi Boru,

Sorry for the delay. Thanks for playing along and thinking this through.
Interesting point.

(First a small flight of fancy. It makes me think of a time travel paradox situation. (Bodies didn’t address theirs. Travelers did.) If our values come from Christian history, then it doesn’t matter if God exists or not. We have those values regardless. But would we have Christian history if God didn’t exist? Dammit Boru! I’m a statistician, not a philosopher. :-)

I am contending that it is our Christian history that gives us our values. And, obviously to my thinking, we have that history because God exists.

You’re point is that if we have the Christian virtues, then we don’t need God to exist anymore, assuming that he ever did. And I would say yes. Yes we do.

Consider, in the last 100 to 200 years, and the last 60 in particular, we have moved from a Christian society to a post-christian society. The 19th-century poet Matthew Arnold once spoke of the “long, withdrawing roar” of the “Sea of Faith,” leaving us with “neither joy, nor love, nor light.”

Those values have still been with us but, as I see it, are going away, getting replaced by greater selfishness, antagonism, etc. The world is not getting better without that Christian worldview.

If God didn’t exist, then even though, somehow, the Christian worldview lasted that long anyway, it will soon die out. Without the Christian worldview, what is there to get us back on track? And not only without that worldview, but replaced by many, many worldviews, almost to the point where everyone has their own unique worldview. It seems to me that it will be impossible to keep those virtues. Who will define what is inhumane, when everyone has a different idea of what humane is? How will we have compassion for victims when everyone is a victim? How can we have community and brotherhood, when our culture fights for radical individualism? I don’t know.

On the other hand, if God does exist, then (try not to do a spit-take here) His plan of salvation is constantly at work. He is letting us wallow in our own sinfulness, like He did with the Israelites in the OT. We Christians have to recognize that we have lost our moral vision. You all say this all the time: When you see how Christians act, why would you want to be Christian?

If Christians can stop being buttheads (can I say that here?) and start being Christ-like, then we can again be a light to the world. Now back to the point, we could not do that on our own. On our own, we will always be buttheads, where eventually, we’ll be going to hell in a bucket, and not even enjoying the ride. As evidence of this I show you the last 200, 100, 60 years.

But because God exists, He can guide us back to those virtues, (and I say He is).

For today, no, it may not matter whether God exists as long as the people around you have that worldview. But tomorrow they may not, and then it matters.

“You’re point is that if we have the Christian virtues, then we don’t need God to exist anymore, assuming that he ever did. And I would say yes. Yes we do.”

Hey Simp,h
hh
Is yahweh a christian?

No, Yahweh was a Babylonian deity, one of the sons of El Elyion, as proven when the Royal Library of Ashurbanipal was foiund in he 1800's. Yahweh ordered all sorts of atrocities. 

Yes in the sense that human culture evolved, and when science found that empathy was a feature of evolution, and "Cristian values" was not really from a Jebus, but from what supported survival of thje group in evolution, Christianity was found to be irrelevant.

(December 3, 2023 at 4:19 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote:

(December 3, 2023 at 4:15 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ... it didn’t seem necessary to reply further, ...

I think this about the whole thread.
It's not serious any longer.
It should be enjoyed obviously - with a decent sense of humour - but truth is, no one is taking god or any of the questions seriously.
Its basically over.  :-)

What I don't, and never will, understand, is why you, and people like you, expect us to take your claims about your imaginary friend seriously. Especially when all you can offer in evidence of your exceptional claims is allegory, wild assertions, and ancient texts of dubious (at best) historicity.

(December 3, 2023 at 4:36 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: Who is Scooter???

A deaf kid, an acquaintance, who often visited us during high school sign language class.

In the end, it doesn't really matter where gods come from, or even whether they exist. Jesus and god can be givens in a discussion about subjectivism. If the moral or meaning making property is whatever is natural to a moral or meaning agent - that's one way to view morality and meaning...but it clearly doesn't need gods to proceed even if they did exist to have opinions and even one of us knew what those opinions were. We already have a moral or meaning making system exactly like that just within ourselves, or between each other.

Who knows. Maybe that's all it is. Maybe when gods or people say that there's something about x that's good or bad that's not what they mean. They're really not saying anything about x - just themselves. On the plus side, no subjectivist statement of meaning or morality that accurately reflects the nature of a given subject can be incorrect, or untrue, and even if we can't know anything else we seem awfully good at knowing what our preferences are. Gods included.

So, you know, god might say "killing the enemy for land and loot and taking their young daughters into sexual slavery is right and just!"...and I might say "Yuck, fucking creeper" - and we're both right! There can't be anything incorrect about that scenario, in a subjectivist understanding of meaning or moral content. We're both living our best lives, apparently.

(December 4, 2023 at 12:17 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: In the end, it doesn't really matter where gods come from, or even whether they exist.  Jesus and god can be givens in a discussion about subjectivism.  If the moral or meaning making property is whatever is natural to a moral or meaning agent - that's one way to view morality and meaning...but it clearly doesn't need gods to proceed even if they did exist to have opinions and even one of us knew what those opinions were.  We already have a moral or meaning making system exactly like that just within ourselves, or between each other.  

Who knows.  Maybe that's all it is.  Maybe when gods or people say that there's something about x that's good or bad that's not what they mean.   They're really not saying anything about x - just themselves.  On the plus side, no subjectivist statement of meaning or morality that accurately reflects the nature of a given subject can be incorrect, or untrue, and even if we can't know anything else we seem awfully good at knowing what our preferences are.  Gods included.

So, you know, god might say "killing the enemy for land and loot and taking their young daughters into sexual slavery is right and just!"...and I might say "Yuck, fucking creeper" - and we're both right!  There can't be anything incorrect about that scenario, in a subjectivist understanding of meaning or moral content.  We're both living our best lives, apparently.

Unless you study Ethics and have ethical standards.