(June 9, 2024 at 7:14 pm)Questor Wrote:

(June 9, 2024 at 5:48 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Heathen will work just fine.

May FSM unharden your heart.

Thoughts and prayers, RAmen

Ah? What a charming sentiment, and I do thank you for your concern for me. 

Not that I can be a heathen to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. After all, I acknowledge the existence of all the Powers and Principalities in the universe, as well as the lack of them, the FSM not excluded.

You're very welcome, I worry for your lost soul.

FSM ate all other Powers and Principalities in the universe. They no longer exist and ergo the religions based on them are false.

I was there for the inaugural Pastafest, it was truly breathtaking when FSM pulled off Pasta Fagioli, but when he finshed off Odin with Polpette Incrostate di Parmigiano, I was blown away. I've never seen anything like it.

(June 9, 2024 at 7:16 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 9, 2024 at 5:21 pm)Questor Wrote: I don't refer to myself as Notzrim except when trying to explain why I am not a xtian. I attend a Messianic Congregation that uses Messianic Jew and Messianic Gentile quite freely, and I am a Jew who believes that Yeshua is the Messiah. However, I am not wedded to the term.

It matters very little to me what i call myself, so long as I am understood. 

What title would you prefer that acknowledges me being Jewish, and believing that Yeshua is my savior that does not include the word xtian?

You see, I dislike the assumptions as to my beliefs that the term xtian implies. Perhaps I should also dislike the term Messianic Jew, although it is the current term that is accepted amongst other Jews that believe in Yeshua.

Would you prefer Covenant Believer? One Rabbi I know uses that, as he has the same difficulty with the various terms as you do.

*chuckle* I have no difficulty with these terms. No actual Jews think Messianic Jews are anything but Christians.

You should have read up on this a bit more before making up this stuff. Silly boy.

Boru

I do not need to read up on it, although I thank you for the suggestion.

I am quite aware that Jews who do not accept Yeshua as their Messiah think quite sincerely that I have converted to xtianity, and have become an idol worshiper. Not being an xtian, and not accepting the xtian idea of a trinity, as it is in direct contradiction to Torah, I do not even have a picture in my mind to supposedly be worshiping. How does one picture a Creator whose essence is spiritual, no matter how easily said Creator can take on a physical form when he wishes to, and in my belief, has. He can do what he pleases, as he is the Creator.

All Jews will, of course, should I recant, accept me back into the fold, so long as I observe their particular halacha, and the more strictly Orthodox, the better. Odd that, since one can be Jewish, secular in one's halacha, and a Buddhist, and not be considered to have converted to another religion, despite the fat little idol in the house. Or the tendency for some Jews to value the writings of the Sages above the accepted word of YHWH.

One distant relative of mine is an anti-missionary, and we had to cease contact, since he was bound inside his thoretical Talmudic box, and would not consider any other information, historical or theological, that contradicted it. He won't pick up a book that is not approved in his Shul. Poor man, he had, as he put it, 'converted' to some pentacostal variety of xtianity, and when he came up for air, completely freaked out, and reverted to the strictist Judaic beliefs that he could find. Yet even he did not think me any the less Jewish for my beliefs. He thought me misguided, and in the wrong, and in need of his help to identify every error in the Apostolic writings so that I could reject them, but would not accept the errors in the Tanakh, or even that there were any. He merely changed the subject, and went back to his initial claims, and discussed my foolishness earnestly at his Shul. (I know, because he told me so.)

One is either Jewish, or one is not, and it is a both a physical attribute, and a cultural one, being derived from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, along with the teachings that are passed down from the patriarchs via one's family. My family tried to shed both, and in the end, it just leaked out everywhere.

I cannot escape my family, nor despite their efforts, were my parents able to escape it either. It slipped out in word and deed when they were least expecting it to.

(June 10, 2024 at 12:03 pm)Questor Wrote: I do not need to read up on it, although I thank you for the suggestion.

I am quite aware that Jews who do not accept Yeshua as their Messiah think quite sincerely that I have converted to xtianity, and have become an idol worshiper. Not being an xtian, and not accepting the xtian idea of a trinity, as it is in direct contradiction to Torah, I do not even have a picture in my mind to supposedly be worshiping. How does one picture a Creator whose essence is spiritual, no matter how easily said Creator can take on a physical form when he wishes to, and in my belief, has. He can do what he pleases, as he is the Creator.

All Jews will, of course, should I recant, accept me back into the fold, so long as I observe their particular halacha, and the more strictly Orthodox, the better. Odd that, since one can be Jewish, secular in one's halacha, and a Buddhist, and not be considered to have converted to another religion, despite the fat little idol in the house. Or the tendency for some Jews to value the writings of the Sages above the accepted word of YHWH.

One distant relative of mine is an anti-missionary, and we had to cease contact, since he was bound inside his thoretical Talmudic box, and would not consider any other information, historical or theological, that contradicted it. He won't pick up a book that is not approved in his Shul. Poor man, he had, as he put it, 'converted' to some pentacostal variety of xtianity, and when he came up for air, completely freaked out, and reverted to the strictist Judaic beliefs that he could find. Yet even he did not think me any the less Jewish for my beliefs. He thought me misguided, and in the wrong, and in need of his help to identify every error in the Apostolic writings so that I could reject them, but would not accept the errors in the Tanakh, or even that there were any. He merely changed the subject, and went back to his initial claims, and discussed my foolishness earnestly at his Shul. (I know, because he told me so.)

One is either Jewish, or one is not, and it is a both a physical attribute, and a cultural one, being derived from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, along with the teachings that are passed down from the patriarchs via one's family. My family tried to shed both, and in the end, it just leaked out everywhere.

I cannot escape my family, nor despite their efforts, were my parents able to escape it either. It slipped out in word and deed when they were least expecting it to.

I was raised as a United Pentecostal. They also don't believe in the trinity. Are they culturally Jewish and just don't know it?

Quote:I am quite aware that Jews who do not accept Yeshua as their Messiah think quite sincerely that I have converted to xtianity,

You have. Accepting Jesus as the Messiah is what makes Christianity Christianity and what makes Christians Christians. It is THE defining characteristic - you can’t be a Christian without it, and without it, you can’t be a Christian.

But if you insist on calling yourself a Messianic Jew, go right ahead. You can call yourself Empress of The Alfalfa Fields if you like, but it doesn’t change what you are.

Boru

(June 10, 2024 at 12:13 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:I am quite aware that Jews who do not accept Yeshua as their Messiah think quite sincerely that I have converted to xtianity,

You have. Accepting Jesus as the Messiah is what makes Christianity Christianity and what makes Christians Christians. It is THE defining characteristic - you can’t be a Christian without it, and without it, you can’t be a Christian.

But if you insist on calling yourself a Messianic Jew, go right ahead. You can call yourself Empress of The Alfalfa Fields if you like, but it doesn’t change what you are.

Boru

Accepting Yeshua as the Messiah makes Judaism what it was designed to be . . . a plan on its way to completion, that was designed with a specific ending in mind from the beginning. Many xtians adhere to this, but they do not divest themselves of the essential problem they accepted with the Greco-Roman concept of what the Messiah is, and the blatant changes to Messianic thought among Jews of the First Century made by those who were anxious to separate themselves from the political dangers of being proselytes to Judaism.

It is the Greco-Roman culture that xtianity is steeped in that I reject, preferring to adhere to the tenets laid down in the Scriptures, and the culture that is described there-in, and added to, if involuntarily, by my family.

Calling me an xtian is intrinsically incorrect, as I cannot adhere to anything that xtians put forth in their statements of beliefs other than that they also have acknowledged that Yeshua is the Messiah. Once having stated that, the various denominations start adding in what other beliefs inculcated in the pagan, Greco-Roman world. I begin reading them, and then sense a big tilt sign being flashed at me as they sharply digress from Torah.

Salvation is what YHWH promised us, and whomsoever will choose to follow the one named Salvation (Yeshua) may do so. But that salvation merely makes Gentiles proselytes to Judaism - God-fearers, and those that were first in acknowledging Yeshua as their Savior were in Judea, and attending the synagogues to understand and adhere to Judaism, as a culture and a religion. They ceased doing so before the First Century was completed, and the few that remained were ducking and running from the Roman Empire and from the Jews. Some stayed within a Jewish framework, but most accepted the changes inculcated by the so-called Church Fathers, who themselves rooted Judaism out of the western idea of xtianity. Indeed, they fathered an entirely different idea of how to follow Yeshua that has since spun out of control.

You seem to not realize there is a sharp dicotomy between Jews that accept Yeshua is the Messsiah, and live as Jews, and those Gentiles who accept the Greco-Roman idea of Yeshua as their Savior, and live as pagans. Calling me a xtian is pretty much the same as calling me a pagan, and I don't like it. Perhaps it is your upbringing in a pentacostal denomination that keeps you from recognizing that dicotomy, and you are still far more xtian yourself than you might believe. 

I consider myself to be quite blessed to not have been raised in xtianity, nor steeped in any particular halacha as a Jew. I get to choose my way, guided by the Tanakh, and by G-d. Just the remnants of that mindset that float in the western consciousness are hard to avoid, but I do so by not connecting myself to any xtian ideas or practices as is possible. But I do admit that it completely confuses the xtians I know, as they do not undnerstand the Hebraic mindset. And those Gentiles seeking to shed their xtianity need to begin by following what is written in the Torah, and taught upon in midrashic form in the Apostolic writings, as those who are called Messianic Gentiles do so now.

But if your understanding of what a Messianic Jew is, is so codified as a denomination of xtianity, so be it. It simply means that you cannot divest yourself of xtian thought anymore than other xtians do.

(June 10, 2024 at 1:39 pm)Questor Wrote:

---

Accepting Yeshua as the Messiah makes Judaism what it was designed to be . . . a plan on its way to completion, that was designed with a specific ending in mind from the beginning. Many xtians adhere to this, but they do not divest themselves of the essential problem they accepted with the Greco-Roman concept of what the Messiah is, and the blatant changes to Messianic thought among Jews of the First Century made by those who were anxious to separate themselves from the political dangers of being proselytes to Judaism.

It is the Greco-Roman culture that xtianity is steeped in that I reject, preferring to adhere to the tenets laid down in the Scriptures, and the culture that is described there-in, and added to, if involuntarily, by my family.

Calling me an xtian is intrinsically incorrect, as I cannot adhere to anything that xtians put forth in their statements of beliefs other than that they also have acknowledged that Yeshua is the Messiah. Once having stated that, the various denominations start adding in what other beliefs inculcated in the pagan, Greco-Roman world. I begin reading them, and then sense a big tilt sign being flashed at me as they sharply digress from Torah.

Salvation is what YHWH promised us, and whomsoever will choose to follow the one named Salvation (Yeshua) may do so. But that salvation merely makes Gentiles proselytes to Judaism - God-fearers, and those that were first in acknowledging Yeshua as their Savior were in Judea, and attending the synagogues to understand and adhere to Judaism, as a culture and a religion. They ceased doing so before the First Century was completed, and the few that remained were ducking and running from the Roman Empire and from the Jews. Some stayed within a Jewish framework, but most accepted the changes inculcated by the so-called Church Fathers, who themselves rooted Judaism out of the western idea of xtianity. Indeed, they fathered an entirely different idea of how to follow Yeshua that has since spun out of control.

You seem to not realize there is a sharp dicotomy between Jews that accept Yeshua is the Messsiah, and live as Jews, and those Gentiles who accept the Greco-Roman idea of Yeshua as their Savior, and live as pagans. Calling me a xtian is pretty much the same as calling me a pagan, and I don't like it. Perhaps it is your upbringing in a pentacostal denomination that keeps you from recognizing that dicotomy, and you are still far more xtian yourself than you might believe. 

I consider myself to be quite blessed to not have been raised in xtianity, nor steeped in any particular halacha as a Jew. I get to choose my way, guided by the Tanakh, and by G-d. Just the remnants of that mindset that float in the western consciousness are hard to avoid, but I do so by not connecting myself to any xtian ideas or practices as is possible. But I do admit that it completely confuses the xtians I know, as they do not undnerstand the Hebraic mindset. And those Gentiles seeking to shed their xtianity need to begin by following what is written in the Torah, and taught upon in midrashic form in the Apostolic writings, as those who are called Messianic Gentiles do so now.

But if your understanding of what a Messianic Jew is, is so codified as a denomination of xtianity, so be it. It simply means that you cannot divest yourself of xtian thought anymore than other xtians do.

---

Ya still have the 'god problem'. What concrete evidence do you have to support your beliefs?

(June 10, 2024 at 7:53 pm)brewer Wrote:

(June 10, 2024 at 1:39 pm)Questor Wrote:

---

Accepting Yeshua as the Messiah makes Judaism what it was designed to be . . . a plan on its way to completion, that was designed with a specific ending in mind from the beginning. Many xtians adhere to this, but they do not divest themselves of the essential problem they accepted with the Greco-Roman concept of what the Messiah is, and the blatant changes to Messianic thought among Jews of the First Century made by those who were anxious to separate themselves from the political dangers of being proselytes to Judaism.

It is the Greco-Roman culture that xtianity is steeped in that I reject, preferring to adhere to the tenets laid down in the Scriptures, and the culture that is described there-in, and added to, if involuntarily, by my family.

Calling me an xtian is intrinsically incorrect, as I cannot adhere to anything that xtians put forth in their statements of beliefs other than that they also have acknowledged that Yeshua is the Messiah. Once having stated that, the various denominations start adding in what other beliefs inculcated in the pagan, Greco-Roman world. I begin reading them, and then sense a big tilt sign being flashed at me as they sharply digress from Torah.

Salvation is what YHWH promised us, and whomsoever will choose to follow the one named Salvation (Yeshua) may do so. But that salvation merely makes Gentiles proselytes to Judaism - God-fearers, and those that were first in acknowledging Yeshua as their Savior were in Judea, and attending the synagogues to understand and adhere to Judaism, as a culture and a religion. They ceased doing so before the First Century was completed, and the few that remained were ducking and running from the Roman Empire and from the Jews. Some stayed within a Jewish framework, but most accepted the changes inculcated by the so-called Church Fathers, who themselves rooted Judaism out of the western idea of xtianity. Indeed, they fathered an entirely different idea of how to follow Yeshua that has since spun out of control.

You seem to not realize there is a sharp dicotomy between Jews that accept Yeshua is the Messsiah, and live as Jews, and those Gentiles who accept the Greco-Roman idea of Yeshua as their Savior, and live as pagans. Calling me a xtian is pretty much the same as calling me a pagan, and I don't like it. Perhaps it is your upbringing in a pentacostal denomination that keeps you from recognizing that dicotomy, and you are still far more xtian yourself than you might believe. 

I consider myself to be quite blessed to not have been raised in xtianity, nor steeped in any particular halacha as a Jew. I get to choose my way, guided by the Tanakh, and by G-d. Just the remnants of that mindset that float in the western consciousness are hard to avoid, but I do so by not connecting myself to any xtian ideas or practices as is possible. But I do admit that it completely confuses the xtians I know, as they do not undnerstand the Hebraic mindset. And those Gentiles seeking to shed their xtianity need to begin by following what is written in the Torah, and taught upon in midrashic form in the Apostolic writings, as those who are called Messianic Gentiles do so now.

But if your understanding of what a Messianic Jew is, is so codified as a denomination of xtianity, so be it. It simply means that you cannot divest yourself of xtian thought anymore than other xtians do.

---

Ya still have the 'god problem'. What concrete evidence do you have to support your beliefs?

Fulfilled prophecy, and lots of it. Most importantly as 'hard' proof is that Israel is reborn, complete with original language, as stated :

For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, That they all may call on the name of YHWH, To serve Him with one accord. (Zephaniah 3:9)

Thus says YHWH Tsavaot, the God of Israel: “They shall again use this speech in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I bring back their captivity: ‘YHWH bless you, O home of justice, and mountain of holiness!’ (Jeremiah 31:23)

Much other prophecy is scattered throughout Ezekial 25-48, but you will need to read the entire 'Old Testament' for the underlying concepts and other relevant prophecies, but the heart of the matter is:

Then say to them, 'Thus says YHWH Elohim: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;  (Ezekial 37:21)

And if you think what happens to Israel doesn't matter, or that prophecy is irrelelvant, why do much of the world's population hate Jews with a passion greater than they have for life? After all, there are currently only about 14 million of us worldwide, and yet, we are the world's essential enemy . . . and have been since about 1400 BC.

Prophecies are fulfilled at exactly the same rate at coincidence, and for exactly the same reasons.

Boru

(June 11, 2024 at 11:31 am)Questor Wrote:

(June 10, 2024 at 7:53 pm)brewer Wrote: Ya still have the 'god problem'. What concrete evidence do you have to support your beliefs?

Fulfilled prophecy, and lots of it. Most importantly as 'hard' proof is that Israel is reborn, complete with original language, as stated :

For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, That they all may call on the name of YHWH, To serve Him with one accord. (Zephaniah 3:9)

Thus says YHWH Tsavaot, the God of Israel: “They shall again use this speech in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I bring back their captivity: ‘YHWH bless you, O home of justice, and mountain of holiness!’ (Jeremiah 31:23)

Much other prophecy is scattered throughout Ezekial 25-48, but you will need to read the entire 'Old Testament' for the underlying concepts and other relevant prophecies, but the heart of the matter is:

Then say to them, 'Thus says YHWH Elohim: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;  (Ezekial 37:21)

And if you think what happens to Israel doesn't matter, or that prophecy is irrelelvant, why do much of the world's population hate Jews with a passion greater than they have for life? After all, there are currently only about 14 million of us worldwide, and yet, we are the world's essential enemy . . . and have been since about 1400 BC.

That's not evidence, certainly not concrete. It's anecdote, a story, testimony, that is quite frankly not very authoritative or reliable. My my, you are quite emotional after me asking what should be a simple question. WHY?

BTW, I don't consider you an 'enemy', just ignorant.