(November 22, 2024 at 8:13 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 10:16 am)Ravenshire Wrote: I wouldn't fucking care, and I don't understand the mindset that is obsessed by it, and wants to eliminate it.

I want people to listen to what trans people say, and not try to replace their subjective experience with some objective test which may or may not confirm what they've already said.

Like people who "subjectively claim" to be heterosexual...

(November 22, 2024 at 8:20 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

Quote:I've answered this more than once already, so I am not sure why you keep repeating the question? 

You've asserted that the evidence exists. 

And linked it, and referenced it, more than once, is lying all you have left? You can't have run out of straw men surely?

(November 22, 2024 at 9:25 pm)Sheldon Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 8:13 pm)Belacqua Wrote: I want people to listen to what trans people say, and not try to replace their subjective experience with some objective test which may or may not confirm what they've already said.

Like people who "subjectively claim" to be heterosexual...

Yes, there are a lot of us. Have you developed your test yet to objectively confirm that I'm telling the truth?

(November 22, 2024 at 9:27 pm)Sheldon Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 8:20 pm)Belacqua Wrote: You've asserted that the evidence exists. 

And linked it, and referenced it, more than once, is lying all you have left? You can't have run out of straw men surely?

Ooh, insults.

It's important to note that while we all feel empathy is an important thing, it is also about the easiest of human feelings to switch off.

(November 22, 2024 at 8:20 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

Quote:The experience is subjective, but there is objective evidence that pain exists.

That's certainly true. Though later in the thread we hear that some people don't feel pain and might fake it. 

So if someone has never seen a TV, and someone else lies they have a TV, this means the existence of TV's can't be objectively evidenced? I am going to get a migraine if I roll my eyes much more.  

Quote:Skin conduction, etc., are not pain. They are associated with pain. 

Explain what you think the difference is? Only if you dishonestly straw man me, and say they are not the experience of pain, we are finally done. 

Quote:So we have objective evidence that something is happening, 

And we call it pain, the objective markers presented were what you asked for, just as you earlier asked for objective evidence that people's gender identity differed from their biological identity, then lied it hadn't been given. 

(November 22, 2024 at 8:25 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 5:13 pm)Sheldon Wrote: Also worth noting that pain is not just subjective, but relative, since we are all born with differing pain thresholds. Very occasionally people are born with no pain threshold at all, and can feel no pain.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h...s-47719718

"Jo Cameron only realises her skin is burning when she smells singed flesh. She often burns her arms on the oven, but feels no pain to warn her.


That's because she is one of only two people in the world known to have a rare genetic mutation.

It means she feels virtually no pain, and never feels anxious or afraid."

And of course whilst we are born with a pain threshold we cannot alter, parenthetically we can alter our pain tolerance.

Maybe she's just a very good liar @Belacqua? Then again...

"Dr Devjit Srivastava - sent her to pain geneticists at University College London (UCL) and Oxford University.

After tests, they found gene mutations which meant that she did not feel pain like most people."

Wouldn't that be objective evidence? Don't ask me I am not a geneticist...

Yes, this is a good point. In some very few cases, the normal objective tests we give to determine someone's feelings might not apply to an individual. 

That is not at all what that example shows, they found objective evidence that she experience virtually no pain.

Quote:If she says she doesn't feel pain, when most people would, then we should be very careful in dealing with her. Maybe she's lying,

Yeah, maybe send her to pain geneticists at University College London (UCL) and Oxford University to be tested? Oh wait, that's what the article say they did??? And they found a rare genetic disorder...all in my post and the link???

Oh look they didn't just believe her claim she wasn't experiencing pain:

"Jo, from Whitebridge, near Inverness, told the BBC Scotland news website that doctors didn't believe her when she said she wouldn't need pain relief after surgery."

(November 22, 2024 at 9:37 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 9:27 pm)Sheldon Wrote: And linked it, and referenced it, more than once, is lying all you have left? You can't have run out of straw men surely?

Ooh, insults.

I linked material from renowned international psychiatric bodies in both the US and the UK, demonstrating objective evidence for gender dysphoria, you initially ignored it, and are now lying I haven't provided it. You can be as butt hurt as you like, but anyone can read the posts in this thread. I've been as patient with your straw manning as I am able, but it is very tedious. 

Quote:It's important to note that while we all feel empathy is an important thing, it is also about the easiest of human feelings to switch off.

What does that have to do with your claim that gender identity differing from biological identity, is based solely on subjective opinion, or your lie that I have not posted objective evidence to refute it?

(November 22, 2024 at 9:37 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 9:25 pm)Sheldon Wrote: Like people who "subjectively claim" to be heterosexual...

Have you developed your test yet to objectively confirm that I'm telling the truth?

I made no such claim...straw man fallacy...again

(November 22, 2024 at 8:14 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 11:02 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I don't know how you would feel after being hit in the face with a two-by-four, but that doesn't mean that would give you an orgasm. There's many subjective experiences  that we cannot share, but many we can imagine -- at least if we have a sense of empathy.

Yes, thank you. This is further confirmation that intersubjectivity provides very persuasive evidence.

Right, while you ignore the objective evidence of pain Sheldon mentioned above.

The recent turn in this thread reminds me an anecdote from the production of The Return of the King.  Director Peter Jackson, for the scene in which Saruman is killed, told Christoper Lee to imagine what it feels like to be stabbed. The 6'5" Lee glared down at Jackson and said, 'I don't have to imagine it, you sad little man.'

Boru