Brian Sodding Boru:
The main error of the “rational” people of or time is to think that humanity does not change. This is simply not true.
Example: I am watching a movie on Gandhi these days. The truth about Gandhi is that had he appeared before the enlightenment, He and all of his followers would have been Crucified (as the Romans crucified all the followers of the rebel Spartacus) or even better: They would have been transformed into gladiators to entertain the common people.
So I believe that mankind is an ongoing project. Period.
So here is a nice article on colonialism:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce3yepedj57o
Before the creation of Israel, between 1917 and 1939 the British colonial authorities have also mistreated the Arabs. In fact, in 1917 Jews constituted some 7% of the population. Their number was already increasing in Ottoman times and Constantinople had to issue laws to prevent Jews from migrating to Palestine. Jews even tried to buy Palestine from Abdulhamid II in the 19th century. The Sultan refused the proposal immediately. (Abdulhamid is not a historical figure that I like on a personal level but he had his principles. He would not just “sell” his empire).
My point of view on Zionism is that in the 19th century, Jews like any other ethnic group in the world wanted their own state. But their issue was more problematic because they had been dispersed all over the world. So they held on to their religious ideas of “promised land” and “the chosen people”. I must tell you that these are all expressions that need to be put in a context. Jews were sort of “chosen” because their religion was the only monotheistic religion in around 1200 BC. God did give them Palestine when they had to move from Egypt (again back in 1200 BC).
So Jews had to resort to “conspiracy like” behaviors to create their Jewish state (I only know about the main issues like the barfour Declaration). Thanks to such behavior other extremely nationalist ideologies (like Nazism) and/or political Islam decided they had to be eradicated (That’s in the 1930’s).
Anyway. Today France, Germany and the UK are facing the atrocities they did in colonial times. And this trend is going to increase. Yesterday I saw that Doctors without borders were leaving Gaza.
To me it’s not an issue of Arabs vs Jews. I am trying to figure out how these Doctors without borders are going there to try to help people to live. And at the same time, they cannot stay there because even their clinics are being destroyed with bombs.
So if Trump is still hoping to simply move these people out, good luck with that. But even if it was possible I don’t think this is the way of handling things in our time. All that I am saying is that in a more civilized era there is a need for a more civilized answer even to a problem like that. I can’t make a process about ordinary Arabs, but I think most educated Arabs and Arab governments would understand that.
And Netanyahu has to go now. DO you know he came to the US trying to avoid the airspace of several countries because just like Putin, he might simply be arrested for his war crimes and crimes against humanity?
+ The UN is not just made to stay there. I think that when the UN makes a resolution, it is our duty to respect it. This is true on many issues. Antonio Guteres is saying all the right things on climate and plastic pollution. It is our leaders who are simply not listening. This has to go as well.
That’s my position on these things.
Ivan Denisovich:
The rise of nationalism is a problem in itself. I must take you to the date on September 1955. The date of the Istanbul Pogrom:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom
Under the Sultans everyone lived in harmony in Constantinople. Jews, Orthodox, Latins (Europeans), Arabs, Turks, Greeks. The Pera area was in itself a piece of Europe in the hearth of Istanbul. There were Protestant churches (and many of these churches are still standing) next to Muslim mosques etc. But all of this had to change in 1955. It was unseen. But political Islamist mobs were now attacking Jewish and Christian communities. So today there is one last Greek Tavern in what used to be the capital of the Byzantine Empire (just one).
We are living in an age in which our cultural / ethnic identities are important. There is no problem with that. I see that as a good thing. But as I have showed you it came with a price and in many places people are still paying the price. Example: The Kurds. They are fighing here (Turkey), in Iran, in Iraq, in Syria. They are close to some 70 million in total. But they still don’t have their own country. And I don’t even know how they are going to even get there In this region in which even existing sovereign states are collapsing one by one.
So again: We need civilized and logical solutions to these problems. Religious fanaticism will not get anyone anywhere. In fact I believe that these religious ideologies are some neo-fascist ideologies designed to keep the Middle East completely messed up so that imperialist power can end up dictating their will in the region. (But that’s one theory among many others)
Bellaqua:
The idea of “civilization” can also become the worst religious dogma. Think of the things the British did when Gandhi was trying to free India with non-violence. When you see “the other” as uncivilized and barbaric you can do anything to them without feeling guilty about it.
So many things will have to be corrected. If there is to be a Palestinian State, they must have everything that civilized people have. And there must be no invading colonies or foreign army on their lands.
The problem is that if you treat people as animals, their likelihood to truly become animals’ increases. That’s why I am very skeptical about the motivation of all those political Islamist organizations. I often have questions marks regarding how these were created and how on earth these guys became “freedom fighters”.
I think that people fighting over “which God is the true God” issue is so outdated. That’s not how 21st century religion works. But there is also this “racial” aspect of the conflict. Like the “white man vs brown man” thing which is also outdated. The “clash of cultures” is also a relic of the earlier decades.
So I think that something like the Oslo Accords might help us solve this issue once and for all.
The main error of the “rational” people of or time is to think that humanity does not change. This is simply not true.
Example: I am watching a movie on Gandhi these days. The truth about Gandhi is that had he appeared before the enlightenment, He and all of his followers would have been Crucified (as the Romans crucified all the followers of the rebel Spartacus) or even better: They would have been transformed into gladiators to entertain the common people.
So I believe that mankind is an ongoing project. Period.
So here is a nice article on colonialism:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce3yepedj57o
Before the creation of Israel, between 1917 and 1939 the British colonial authorities have also mistreated the Arabs. In fact, in 1917 Jews constituted some 7% of the population. Their number was already increasing in Ottoman times and Constantinople had to issue laws to prevent Jews from migrating to Palestine. Jews even tried to buy Palestine from Abdulhamid II in the 19th century. The Sultan refused the proposal immediately. (Abdulhamid is not a historical figure that I like on a personal level but he had his principles. He would not just “sell” his empire).
My point of view on Zionism is that in the 19th century, Jews like any other ethnic group in the world wanted their own state. But their issue was more problematic because they had been dispersed all over the world. So they held on to their religious ideas of “promised land” and “the chosen people”. I must tell you that these are all expressions that need to be put in a context. Jews were sort of “chosen” because their religion was the only monotheistic religion in around 1200 BC. God did give them Palestine when they had to move from Egypt (again back in 1200 BC).
So Jews had to resort to “conspiracy like” behaviors to create their Jewish state (I only know about the main issues like the barfour Declaration). Thanks to such behavior other extremely nationalist ideologies (like Nazism) and/or political Islam decided they had to be eradicated (That’s in the 1930’s).
Anyway. Today France, Germany and the UK are facing the atrocities they did in colonial times. And this trend is going to increase. Yesterday I saw that Doctors without borders were leaving Gaza.
To me it’s not an issue of Arabs vs Jews. I am trying to figure out how these Doctors without borders are going there to try to help people to live. And at the same time, they cannot stay there because even their clinics are being destroyed with bombs.
So if Trump is still hoping to simply move these people out, good luck with that. But even if it was possible I don’t think this is the way of handling things in our time. All that I am saying is that in a more civilized era there is a need for a more civilized answer even to a problem like that. I can’t make a process about ordinary Arabs, but I think most educated Arabs and Arab governments would understand that.
And Netanyahu has to go now. DO you know he came to the US trying to avoid the airspace of several countries because just like Putin, he might simply be arrested for his war crimes and crimes against humanity?
+ The UN is not just made to stay there. I think that when the UN makes a resolution, it is our duty to respect it. This is true on many issues. Antonio Guteres is saying all the right things on climate and plastic pollution. It is our leaders who are simply not listening. This has to go as well.
That’s my position on these things.
Ivan Denisovich:
The rise of nationalism is a problem in itself. I must take you to the date on September 1955. The date of the Istanbul Pogrom:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom
Under the Sultans everyone lived in harmony in Constantinople. Jews, Orthodox, Latins (Europeans), Arabs, Turks, Greeks. The Pera area was in itself a piece of Europe in the hearth of Istanbul. There were Protestant churches (and many of these churches are still standing) next to Muslim mosques etc. But all of this had to change in 1955. It was unseen. But political Islamist mobs were now attacking Jewish and Christian communities. So today there is one last Greek Tavern in what used to be the capital of the Byzantine Empire (just one).
We are living in an age in which our cultural / ethnic identities are important. There is no problem with that. I see that as a good thing. But as I have showed you it came with a price and in many places people are still paying the price. Example: The Kurds. They are fighing here (Turkey), in Iran, in Iraq, in Syria. They are close to some 70 million in total. But they still don’t have their own country. And I don’t even know how they are going to even get there In this region in which even existing sovereign states are collapsing one by one.
So again: We need civilized and logical solutions to these problems. Religious fanaticism will not get anyone anywhere. In fact I believe that these religious ideologies are some neo-fascist ideologies designed to keep the Middle East completely messed up so that imperialist power can end up dictating their will in the region. (But that’s one theory among many others)
Bellaqua:
The idea of “civilization” can also become the worst religious dogma. Think of the things the British did when Gandhi was trying to free India with non-violence. When you see “the other” as uncivilized and barbaric you can do anything to them without feeling guilty about it.
So many things will have to be corrected. If there is to be a Palestinian State, they must have everything that civilized people have. And there must be no invading colonies or foreign army on their lands.
The problem is that if you treat people as animals, their likelihood to truly become animals’ increases. That’s why I am very skeptical about the motivation of all those political Islamist organizations. I often have questions marks regarding how these were created and how on earth these guys became “freedom fighters”.
I think that people fighting over “which God is the true God” issue is so outdated. That’s not how 21st century religion works. But there is also this “racial” aspect of the conflict. Like the “white man vs brown man” thing which is also outdated. The “clash of cultures” is also a relic of the earlier decades.
So I think that something like the Oslo Accords might help us solve this issue once and for all.
![[Image: 7151bc275de2d3d422106a4008215efe.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/71/51/bc/7151bc275de2d3d422106a4008215efe.jpg)
![[Image: pulp-fiction-wtf.gif]](https://media.tenor.com/kVrGzZGZnUUAAAAM/pulp-fiction-wtf.gif)
