Is this Simply Going to go on Forever?

[The Grand Nudger]

What would a scientific solution to a moral, territorial, and existential disagreement look like?

[Thumpalumpacus]

What would a scientific solution to a moral, territorial, and existential disagreement look like?

[Ivan Denisovich]

Yet the real people are very reactive. See Greta Thunberg + other activists are leaving the port of Barcelona today with some 70 ships with the intention of delivering aid to the Gazans. Some other ships from Italy will join them as they move toward Gaza:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/ship...37873.html

Yes, there are still people with morals but it matters little when majority and politicians does not give a shit.
 

- So D. Trump is not going to build a Riviera in Gaza. In fact, nothing is going to happen in Palestine. It’s like they are trying to numb us completely on the fate of Palestinians and make us react to it like we react to the endless civil wars and famines that are happening in sub-Saharan Africa. And I don’t think this is going to work either

 
Except for genocide that is happening.

Thumbs up to that. That’s because I am powerless and I don’t really know what’s happening there. I don’t really understand Zionism. And I don’t like the idea of being called a racist of an anti-Semitic person.

I provided you enough sources and obviously you have internet and are capable of typing. You can easily get to know what is happening there just like you can read about zionism. I don't give a shit about being called antisemite. In fact if I would be called so by some clown defending israel I would wear this as a badge of honor.

- This must be what they are telling themselves. And I cannot be “all in” in protecting the Arabs. If we go back in time, they attempted several times to completely eradicate the state of Israel. When they failed, they turned to acts of terrorism to try to destabilize the state of Israel. And this Israeli government is the most right-wing Israeli government ever.
 
As I said, I only care about the people caught in the cross fire (Both Israelis and Arabs) 

And Israelis seem to be serious about this (having a state that is their own state)

If we go back in time we would see that israel was built on ethnic cleansing - check what Nakba means. It's a criminal regime from a moment of it's inception so no wonder that neighbours state don't exactly love it. israel is not innocent lamb hated by beastly Arabs but imperialist, criminal regime whose birth was already tainted by ethnic cleansing.

[Leonardo17]

BrianSoddingBoru:
 
You Said: “The situation IS impossible to resolve, for the reasons stated.”
 
I’m giving a lot of thought to this issue. And I don’t think the situation is impossible to solve. I belive this problem itself is artificial.
 
Many nations had to “manage” local populations before they settled in. One example is the US (and Canada). Today the Brazilian government is also being disrespectful toward native people who are the true owners of the rain forest (by not doing enough to stop the agriculture industry who is seeing all the rain forest as empty land just waiting to be exploited).
 
And many Israelis will agree with me on that. That’s because mankind is not a finished project. We are an evolving specie. For instance the German Government is now facing its colonial past and is returning the famous Benin Bronzesto the Benin government. Germany is also paying reparations to Israel.
 
And it may be happening just yet, but I believe that the US and Canada will have to face their past actions against Native Americans. My government will also have to face the mistreatment against Armenians. (Here the debate is focused on the fact that is was a “mass deportation of Armenians” not a “genocide proper”. But it doesn’t matter. At some point we will have to face it).
 
So the problem with Israel is that they think they can still undertake actions that have no place in this century and even the last century and call is Zionism.
 
I’m not an atheist. But this messianic type of Judaism looks very much like the “Is my God better or is your God the only true God of the universe” debate. This takes us way back in human evolution (by 1000 years or so).
 
So no: There is a solution to this madness. Even the IDF probably agrees with me at this point
 
Ivan Denisovich:
 
- Donald Trump is a man with a serious personality disorder.
- I’m only saying that everything is so messed up. In the 60’s and 70’s there we left wing people from other countries coming to join the anti-imperialist resistance led by Yasser Arafat and several other leftist groups in Palestine.
 
Today the US is refusing to issue a visa to Mahmoud Abbas (the official Palestinian authority).
 
Political Islamist terror groups like “Hamas” or “Hezbollah” are trying to sell themselves as liberators. These are artificial resistance movements who cannot answer to the real situation on the ground in Palestine:
 
https://deadline.com/2025/09/gaza-crisis...236510368/
 
And as I said: I cannot say I want to know about Zionism either. I’m interested in other forms of etnic and/or racial policies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayezid_II...20welcomed.
 
Final Part:
 
I don’t care about the past either. I mean, yes Israel should pay reparations for all they did (the Nakbah and other things as well). But I am willing to let them stay on the territories they have already taken.
 
The only problem is that D. Trump is the worst possible guy to handle such an issue. (He is the worst possible guy to handle Ukraine as well). What we have right now is like a perfect storm.
 
Besides: If there is no Riviera in Gaza, nobody even knows what to do with Gaza in the coming years either.
 
One possibility is that this is one of the many issues that can only be fully addressed at the end of Trump’s current term (if he agrees to hand up power in due time that is)

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

 
You Said: “The situation IS impossible to resolve, for the reasons stated.”
 
I’m giving a lot of thought to this issue. And I don’t think the situation is impossible to solve. I belive this problem itself is artificial.

Of course the problem is artificial - it’s a religious disagreement based on fictional events.

So, you really believe that there will come a time when Israel rescinds its land claims, or agrees to the division of Jerusalem? You really believe that the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world will adopt a ‘forgive and forget’ policy towards Israel’s butchery of their co-religionists, or will accept Israel’s existence?

If you do (and even if you don’t), tell me what you think a solution would look like.

Boru

[Ivan Denisovich]

I don’t care about the past either. I mean, yes Israel should pay reparations for all they did (the Nakbah and other things as well). But I am willing to let them stay on the territories they have already taken.

Why should criminal regime get to keep spoils of it's illegal actions? israel is a fucking criminal regime currently engaging in genocide with history of ignoring UN resolutions. It should stay under some rock not in the land that it occupies illegally.
 

The only problem is that D. Trump is the worst possible guy to handle such an issue. (He is the worst possible guy to handle Ukraine as well). What we have right now is like a perfect storm.

No. The problem is that world sees genocide and does shit to stop it or in many cases act in support of perpetrator.

[Mr Greene]

Ultimately it would require monotheism to become a historical footnote.
That will take generations.
The key is education, guess what theocrats try to restrict beyond all else.
The Dark Ages were dark because of the lack of education and literacy, some want to send us back to that state.
With the collapse of religion in Europe sectarianism is fading.
Of course none of this solves the immediate problem of those under Isreali attack.
Perhaps only the threat of regime change in Jerusalem might reign them in, though that's not likely to happen under the current US admin and they know it.
Europe has it's eye on Moscow and Jerusalem is taking the opportunity presented to commit mass murder.
That window of opportunity will close one way way or the other, Moscow is well byond it's sustainable position and must either commit to an all out attack vs. NATO or step back in the not too distant future.

[Belacqua]

Ultimately it would require monotheism to become a historical footnote.
That will take generations.
The key is education, guess what theocrats try to restrict beyond all else.
The Dark Ages were dark because of the lack of education and literacy, some want to send us back to that state.
With the collapse of religion in Europe sectarianism is fading.

Well, as you know, there are different kinds of education. 

Israel's education system is for the most part modern and highly ranked. They have a high rate of literacy. Several of its universities are in the top levels for STEM and high-tech education. This is from Wikipedia:

According to the Webometrics ranking, six of Israel's universities place in the top 100 schools of Asia.[47] Four universities place in the top 150 in the world according to the Shanghai Jiao Tong University Academic Ranking of World Universities, and three are in the Times Higher Education-QS World University Rankings (i.e. amongst the "Top 200 World Universities").

In addition, Israeli universities are among 100 of the top world universities in science and engineering-related subjects, according to the QS World University Rankings

But it's a statistical certainty that most of the students and faculty at these universities support their apartheid government and the ongoing genocide. 

So when we say that it will require education to stop Israel's atrocities, we mean it will require a different kind of education than they have now. And I'm not sure how we could impose our values on them. Cutting off financial and material support would slow down their violence, but not necessarily change their minds about things. 

Then there is also the issue that according to recent polls, 65% of Israelis are atheists. So simply blaming monotheism is maybe too simple. Of course there is the old joke: "There is no God, and he gave me this land." A lot of people behave this way. It's not rare for people to hold contradictory opinions simultaneously. 

But it means that a highly-educated majority-atheist country is committing genocide.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Ultimately it would require monotheism to become a historical footnote.
That will take generations.
The key is education, guess what theocrats try to restrict beyond all else.
The Dark Ages were dark because of the lack of education and literacy, some want to send us back to that state.
With the collapse of religion in Europe sectarianism is fading.

Well, as you know, there are different kinds of education. 

Israel's education system is for the most part modern and highly ranked. They have a high rate of literacy. Several of its universities are in the top levels for STEM and high-tech education. This is from Wikipedia:

According to the Webometrics ranking, six of Israel's universities place in the top 100 schools of Asia.[47] Four universities place in the top 150 in the world according to the Shanghai Jiao Tong University Academic Ranking of World Universities, and three are in the Times Higher Education-QS World University Rankings (i.e. amongst the "Top 200 World Universities").

In addition, Israeli universities are among 100 of the top world universities in science and engineering-related subjects, according to the QS World University Rankings

But it's a statistical certainty that most of the students and faculty at these universities support their apartheid government and the ongoing genocide. 

So when we say that it will require education to stop Israel's atrocities, we mean it will require a different kind of education than they have now. And I'm not sure how we could impose our values on them. Cutting off financial and material support would slow down their violence, but not necessarily change their minds about things. 

Then there is also the issue that according to recent polls, 65% of Israelis are atheists. So simply blaming monotheism is maybe too simple. Of course there is the old joke: "There is no God, and he gave me this land." A lot of people behave this way. It's not rare for people to hold contradictory opinions simultaneously. 

But it means that a highly-educated majority-atheist country is committing genocide.

(Bold mine)

Not true. Polling averages indicate that around 17% of Israelis identify as atheist. The 65% you’re referring to includes the categories ‘secular’ and ‘non-religious’, which are much broader groups than ‘atheist’.

Words mean stuff.

Boru

[Thumpalumpacus]

Apparently yes, it will go on forever:

Israel launched a strike targeting Hamas’ leadership in Qatar on Tuesday as they considered a U.S. proposal for a ceasefire in the Gaza Strip. The strike on the territory of a U.S. ally marked a stunning escalation and risked upending talks aimed at winding down the war and freeing hostages.

Qatar, an energy-rich Gulf nation hosting thousands of American troops, has served as a key mediator between Israel and Hamas throughout the 22-month-old war and even before. It condemned what it referred to as a “flagrant violation of all international laws and norms” as smoke rose over its capital, Doha.

[...]

Israel alerted the U.S. ahead of time, according to an Israeli official, a White House official and another person familiar with the matter. The White House official would not say if Washington provided Israel with approval for carrying out the strike, but another U.S. official said the American military did not participate.

https://apnews.com/article/qatar-explosi...31a8023db5

They apparently prefer widening the war than settling it. I'm beginning to think that this will be Netanyahu's Vietnam.