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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 5 hours ago by The Architect Of Fate.)
(8 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: (8 hours ago)The Architect Of Fate Wrote: I love how he keeps avoiding establishing where God’s magic binds anyone.
That's a different debate. I'll address it after you admit there's no binding morality under atheism, meaning nothing is right or wrong or evil. If you concede that, then we can discuss your topic No, it’s the same debate. I’m not obligated to do any such thing, nor is it necessary to address the point I mentioned. . In fact requirement for any discussion that you answer it first and avoidance to do so moots the requirement for any further discussion.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
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“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
(6 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: (6 hours ago)Sheldon Wrote: Jimmy Saville was a Catholic, he received a Papal medal, so he wasn't bound by theistic morals, and what's more, according to your religion he could still have been saved and spend eternity in Heaven. Now it's just my opinion of course, as are all moral claims, but I find that idea morally repugnant.
You seem to have picked a mass rapist who was a lifelong theist, which rather unpicks your argument theistic morality is binding or objective.
Atheists are so dumb. No one is saying theists can't be rapists. I'm saying if there is no God, Jimmy Saville did nothing wrong objectively. Let's hear another silly response.
If you want an example of dumb ideas, then it has to be the idea that Jimmy Saville can be saved by an act of contrition, and spend eternity in heaven, whilst simultaneously claiming that what he did is objectively immoral. Now that not just a spectacularly stupid idea, it is in my opinion morally repugnant.
While decent people who never harm anyone and wouldn't want to, are damned to an eternity of torment, for not believing something no one can demonstrate a shred of objective evidence to support.
And of course the comedy gold of you calling atheists dumb.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 5 hours ago by The Architect Of Fate.)
No, Mr. AngelThMan, you’re the one who doesn’t understand logic. If you did, you wouldn’t show up here with such poor reasoning and act like you’re somehow outsmarting us. So far, you’ve failed in everyway you could so calling us the dumb ones is rich.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 4 hours ago by Sheldon.)
(5 hours ago)The Architect Of Fate Wrote: No, Mr. AngelThMan, you’re the one who doesn’t understand logic. If you did, you wouldn’t show up here with such poor reasoning and act like you’re somehow outsmarting us. So far, you’ve failed in everyway you could so calling us the dumb ones is rich.
You have to admit it's comedy gold, accusing someone else of not understanding logic, and then using ad hominem and straw man fallacies in the very next post. Bless....
And of course his opening question is a plurium interrogationum fallacy, it contains an unevidenced assumption, like asking someone when did you stop beating your wife, then insisting they answer the question as asked, no matter how often he is told you never beat your wife.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
4 hours ago
(5 hours ago)Sheldon Wrote: (5 hours ago)The Architect Of Fate Wrote: No, Mr. AngelThMan, you’re the one who doesn’t understand logic. If you did, you wouldn’t show up here with such poor reasoning and act like you’re somehow outsmarting us. So far, you’ve failed in everyway you could so calling us the dumb ones is rich.
You have to admit it's comedy gold, accusing someone else of not understanding logic, and then using ad hominem and straw man fallacies in the very next post. Bless....
And of course his opening question is a plurium interrogationum fallacy, it contains an unevidenced assumption, like asking someone when did you stop beating your wife, then insisting they answer the question as asked, no matter how often he is told you never beat your wife. Yup, only theistic arrogance could compel someone to come to a forum state that they have a basis of objective morality by default and think they don't need to produce any evidence or argument to support such a brazen statement, then demanding other people produce a basis for objective and then speak of logic.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
4 hours ago
Well. When I say that something is good or bad I’m not saying anything about gods. For example…..if I say that stealing is bad I’m saying that there’s something about stealing that informs my conclusion. Is this different for you OP? Is stealing bad? If there were no gods, would stealing not be bad?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
4 hours ago
(9 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: (9 hours ago)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Under God, rape is not inherently evil, since (according to scripture), God endorses rape.
Boru
That's not the topic. Is your preference binding for anyone else?
That’s PRECISELY the topic.
And no, my preference to not rape anyone isn’t binding on other people, which is why rape exists.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
3 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 3 hours ago by Fake Messiah.)
AngelThMan Wrote:I'm not talking about law of the land. If someone evades it, which often happens, then they have no other moral obligation.
Moral obligation for what?
AngelThMan Wrote:The word "ethics" is just another word for morality.
Indeed, there is secular morality. Secular societies are based on secular humanism.
Have you ever heard of secular humanism?
AngelThMan Wrote:So it's circular to say: Objective morality is ethics. It doesn't answer anything. Under atheism, there's no morality or ethics anyone is obligated to follow
I've never said objective morality is anything because there is no such thing as objective morality.
Again, you obviously don't know anything about how morality in secular societies functions.
Here's a crash course, which I recommend you watch because you keep embarrassing yourself how uneducated you are.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
3 hours ago
@ AngelThMan
Quote:That's a different debate. I'll address it after you admit there's no binding morality under atheism, meaning nothing is right or wrong or evil. If you concede that, then we can discuss your topic.
You’re switching terms. Objective morality is not the same as binding morality. If morality is objective, then we should observe identical moral strictures in all places and in all times (since we don’t, it isn’t). Binding morality, on the other hand, is to be bound by whatever moral code is present in your particular culture. These codes are generally laid out in things called ‘laws’ and enforced by things called ‘courts.’
In other words, I saw you palm that card.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
3 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 3 hours ago by The Grand Nudger.)
There are all sorts of reasons why we might not observe identical moral strictures even if morality were objective…and observing those identical moral strictures ( which there is a hell of a lot of, fwiw) wouldnt get us past intersubjectivity by necessity. All that said, what an absurd demand. Nothing about atheism compels a particular meta ethical stance. Presumably, whatever makes a morality objective in a world with a god is exactly the same thing that makes a morality objective in a world without one.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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