(February 24, 2012 at 9:49 pm)Abracadabra Wrote:

(February 24, 2012 at 8:33 pm)chipan Wrote: You are taking sentences out of the bible and trying to say they contradict one another. Read the passage, not the sentence. Then you will understand.

The entire biblical cannon is one blatant contradiction after another.

You can't use the biblical fables to prove anything other than the fact that they are grossly inconsistent with their own claims.

The bible cannot be the word of any God. But that's beside the point.

The point is that even these false fables cannot be used to support the Christian hatred, even as fables.

Even as fables they clearly have Jesus proclaiming that he will forgive even people who mock him and nail him to a pole.

So it really doesn't matter what you think you can prove. You're a liar.

The only way that you can support a hateful Jesus is to spit in the face of the words attributed to Jesus even in these fables.

Whether they are true or false is irrelevant. The Jesus character in these fables does not support Christian hatred and bigotry.

So even as a fairytale it still doesn't support Christian hatred.

Christians are the creators of hatred, and Jesus cannot be used to support their hateful distortion of this religion.

Did I ever say Jesus was hateful? That appears to be the opposite of what I said. Jesus said help the poor, give to God, and spread the word. He said many other things too. None of them have ever thought to be bad advice by any athiest. They may think its too strict but that's beside the point. There are no contradictions to any biblical accounts. People may say there are but if you look and I mean really look, you will understand why it says what it says. The Jews would not accept any of the old testament books if they were inconsistent. The difference between now and then is that many people have knowingly taken scripture out of context and out of culture and posted it on the web cuz they can. And people believe this because they don't want to look further into it, they just want to throw something at Christians. Don't be like them. Be the better person and learn about it.

The second thing is I find it convenient that you use the bible only to prove your point but when your proven wrong your backup is "well the bible is full of contradictions so that doesn't count" but it counts whenever you score a point that way. If that's how it is then I refuse to partake. I will not engage in conversation that you change your position whenever it's convenient for you.

Excuse me? Jesus gave plenty of shitty advice, and advocated for positions that we (yourself included) have roundly and violently rejected.

I can't just look, I have to really look? What if I've really looked and I still see contradictions? Do I have to really, really look? And then? Really....really....really? I don't think you really have any room criticizing someone elses knowledge on the subject matter. You've had to be told what was and what was not in your own fairy tale. Some of us have looked, we didn't like what we saw. Some of us have learned, and still do not believe. Your posts would be about ten times less irritating if they weren't a steady parade of bullshit followed by implications of our collective ignorance in the face of your enlightenment.

You say the bible says this, and you back it up with a passage. An atheist says the bible says something different, and backs it up with a passage. Somehow, you come out of this exchange with the notion that the consistency of the bible is proved in this manner? The bible can be used (and has been used) to justify anything, absolutely anything. It's a big book, it wasn't written all at once, there's very little it doesn't say (though that silence itself is deafening). If you can't deal with that, if you can't have a conversation in which this is possible, then wtf are you even doing attempting to talk about the bible Chip?

(February 25, 2012 at 2:07 am)Rhythm Wrote: Excuse me? Jesus gave plenty of shitty advice, and advocated for positions that we (yourself included) have roundly and violently rejected.

I can't just look, I have to really look? What if I've really looked and I still see contradictions? Do I have to really, really look? And then? Really....really....really? I don't think you really have any room criticizing someone elses knowledge on the subject matter. You've had to be told what was and what was not in your own fairy tale. Some of us have looked, we didn't like what we saw. Some of us have learned, and still do not believe. Your posts would be about ten times less irritating if they weren't a steady parade of bullshit followed by implications of our collective ignorance in the face of your enlightenment.

You say the bible says this, and you back it up with a passage. An atheist says the bible says something different, and backs it up with a passage. Somehow, you come out of this exchange with the notion that the consistency of the bible is proved in this manner? The bible can be used (and has been used) to justify anything, absolutely anything. It's a big book, it wasn't written all at once, there's very little it doesn't say (though that silence itself is deafening). If you can't deal with that, if you can;t have a conversation in which this is possible, then wtf are you even doing attempting to talk about the bible Chip?

Sorry, I meant on secular manners. Jesus said many spiritual things atheists disagree with. And second, I again apologize. Not everyone can understand everything in the bible. Many things are clear but many things aren't. I didn't post this here but there's a 2 step process to finding information you don't understand.
1. You see something that looks off, look into it. Read further.
2. If you still can't find the answer, ask someone who knows better. 2 people may see the same thing but interpret it differently which is why it's good to get second opinions. Maybe 3rd or 4th opinions. The more you discuss, the more you learn.

(February 25, 2012 at 1:43 am)chipan Wrote: Did I ever say Jesus was hateful?

I couldn't care less what you might personally say. This isn't about you.

This is about a religion.

And yes, Christians have been holding both Jesus and the God of Abraham out as being jealous hateful God(s). There's no question about. The God of Abraham confesses his hateful jealously early on. And the Christians push that same hateful jealously on to Jesus by proclaiming that he's "The Christ".

He automatically hates heathens then because he will supposedly condemn heathens to eternal punishment according to the Christian. And according the highly contradicting scriptures. Even John clearly states in in John 3:18.

(February 25, 2012 at 1:43 am)chipan Wrote: The second thing is I find it convenient that you use the bible only to prove your point but when your proven wrong your backup is "well the bible is full of contradictions so that doesn't count" but it counts whenever you score a point that way. If that's how it is then I refuse to partake. I will not engage in conversation that you change your position whenever it's convenient for you.

I've never changed my position yet.

It is my position that the Bible is nothing but a collection of contradictions. And every time you help me demonstrate one you are supporting my position even though you don't realize it.

I've broken the so-called "Holy Scriptures". They have crumbled into nothing but utterly meaningless gibberish at my hand. They were never anything other than fictitious lies to begin with. They were extremely easy to break.

And I've already demonstrated this in several posts.

I get tired of repeating it, but clearly it hasn't sunk in yet to the thick-headed Christians.

I'll type this out one more time, then I'm going to copy it and keep it on file and just post it whenever this question comes up.

The Scriptures Have Been Broken - It's a Done Deal:

John writes in this Holy Book:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him (Jesus) is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I will demonstrate clearly that John 3:18 an outright contradiction.

First assume that John 5:22 is true (in these fables)

John.5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son

The Father Judgeth no man and all judgment has been committed to the Son (that would be Jesus in these fables)

At Calvary Roman soldiers who did not believe in "Jesus" as the only begotten Son of God, were forgiven by Jesus himself. They neither recognized Jesus as being divine, nor did they ask Jesus for forgiveness. On the contrary, they openly mocked him, beat him, and nailed him to a pole.

Yet according to Luke Jesus said the following:

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

We have TWO blatant contradictions here.

The first being that Jesus was asking the Father to forgive these men. That contradicts John 5:22 and shows that Jesus himself was not aware that he was to be the sole judge of men.

So that's the first blatant contradiction. The scriptures have been broken right there.

The second blatant contradiction is that Jesus is forgiving these men based on a principle of his observation or belief that these men are not understanding what they are doing wrong. (i.e. They know not what they do).

Therefore, Jesus himself at this point in these fables is contradicting John 3:18 that anyone who does not believe in the name of the son of God is condemned already. Clearly Jesus is prepared to forgive these men even though they do not recognize the divinity of Jesus, nor are they asking to be forgiven.

So the scriptures are broken twice in this single event.

It's an easily twice-broken fable just in this one instance.

Of course I've recognized that these fables have been broken since at least the 3rd Chapter of Genesis, but that's a whole other story.

These New Testament Gospels are clearly broken. And the Christian demand that John 3:18 must be held up as the "Voice of Jesus" is false. In fact, John 3:18 isn't even John quoting Jesus, it's just John narrating his own personal opinions.

Clearly these scriptures are as broken as they can be and there is no resurrecting them.

So it's a done deal. The Christian Holy Scriptures have officially been broken. And the Christian claims that Jesus won't forgive anyone unless they recognize that he is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings is hogwash that cannot be supported by these broken fables.

Thank you for reading. And have great day!

There you go again Chip.....

I understand fine, I simply do not agree. Let's just assume, Chip, that I've read your fairy tale. Telling me to read it again, and again, and again, accomplishes exactly what? Again, you're telling someone who has corrected you with regards to what was in the bible and what wasn't that they need to read the bible more. If I need to read more where does that leave you? I don't just disagree with your god on spiritual matters, I disagree with your god on secular grounds such as crime and prosecution, moral grounds RE vicarious redemption, and personal grounds RE general douche-baggery.

Note to Chipan:

The more people read the bible, the more they understand it's flaws. You may have a nice intention to try and share "the good news" of the gospel, but it simply doesn't work on educated agnostics. The bible is JUST A BOOK! And a very redundant, boring and pointless one at that. We don't have to believe in God to have morals. We don't have to believe in Jesus to be happy. We don't have to listen to preachers to be saved. Christianity is a dying religion. Jump off that crazy train before it brings you to complete social and emotional ruin. Seek "god", or a higher power elsewhere, like in Nature for instance. Hey you can see and hear and smell that everyday just outside your door. No mystery, no theology, no bullshit. Just the sun, and sky, and trees, and earth and animals. Be at peace, forget defending something that makes you delusional.

(February 25, 2012 at 3:14 am)Bgood Wrote: Note to Chipan:

You may have a nice intention to try and share "the good news" of the gospel, but it simply doesn't work on educated agnostics.

What's the supposed "good news" anyway?

The only "good news" would be if you already believe the Old Testament.

And even then it's not very "good news" at all.

The supposed "good news" is that Jesus has come to "save" you from eternal damnation. So in order for that to be "good news" you must first already believe that you are damned by a hateful God in the first place.

Moreover, according to these fables even Jesus himself proclaims that the path is straight and the gate is narrow and even now only FEW will make it into the kingdom of God.

That's supposed to be 'good news'?

Also, the only one's who make it are those are willing to confess that they are totally unworthy of making it on their own merit.

This religion demands that it's impossible for any mortal man to make it into heaven under his own merit. Only through the "grace" of the sacrificial lamb of a condemning God will you be permitted to obtain eternal life.

And even then who said that it would be 'paradise'?

According to these fables, you would then need to totally forfeit your own free will and do only the will of God as a completely obedient servant to God.

And if this God supports male-chauvinism on Earth, then why should anyone believe that he doesn't also support male-chauvinism in his eternal heaven?

So Christian women should not expect to be permitted to speak their views in heaven. On the contrary they should expect to be paired up with a man by God himself and be totally ruled over by that man, never to speak their own mind again but instead to serve the desires of their husbands, just as their husbands must serve the desires of this God.

And you call that 'good news'?

As far as I'm concerned if we discovered absolute proof that this disgusting religion if false, and that the secular atheists are right beyond any shadow of a doubt, THAT would be 'good news' in comparison with this sick Abrahamic religion.

But not to worry. I've proven that the Hebrew myths are false. So there's no need to fear this God's wrath any longer. The "good news" is that the Hebrew myths are indeed myths and never had anymore merit than the Greek mythology of Zeus.

That's the real 'Good News'.

(February 21, 2012 at 3:34 am)chipan Wrote: 4. Is Christianity hateful? Well I must admit that Christianity has been used to promote violence. But so has athiesm. Example: hitler. As much as you disagree with him, he claimed to be athiest and often quoted Darwin and wanted to kill what he saw to be the minor race. It's not fair to pass judgment on Christianity because of radicals just the same with hitler and athiesm.

The ignorance in that assertion is staggering:

Quote:We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

Quote:The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.

-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

Quote:We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

Quote:National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State.... The decisive factor which can justify the existence alike of Church and State is the maintenance of men's spiritual and bodily health, for it that health were destroyed it would mean the end of the State and also the end of the Church.... It is my sincere hope that thereby for Germany, too, through free agreement there has been produced a final clarification of spheres in the functions of the State and of one Church.

-Adolf Hitler, on a wireless on 22 July 1933, the evening before the Evangelical Church Election

Yes, Hitler was driven by Christianity and the Christ's demand that all heathens be killed.

In the Old Testament the God of Abraham made it perfectly clearly that heathens are to be actively sought out and killed without mercy. And this God also instructs people to kill the wives and children of the heathens as well.

Jesus, being the demigod Son of the God of Abraham stated that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law until heaven and Earth pass.

So Hitler may have been the only sincere Christian that ever lived. He was desperately trying to fulfill the directives and desires of the God of Abraham and his demigod Son Jesus. Hitler was being perfectly obedient to both the God of Abraham and his demigod Son Jesus.

That is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of these utterly stupid fables, and this is precisely why these asinine fables are so dangerous, they can be used to support the most asinine hideous things. In fact, look at how long they were used as an excuse to burn innocent women at the stake as "witches". Clearly these fables can be interpreted in all sorts of hideous ways. And that shouldn't be surprising since the God in these fables is himself a hideous God.

It's been said that Carl Lewis holds out that Jesus was either a lunatic or he was God (if we take the gospels literally). But I say that if we take the gospels literally then, yes, Jesus was indeed a lunatic. But that holds even more so if he was "God". As a mortal man we can excuse his lunacy as being mere mental illness. As a God there would be no excuse for his lunacy.

Carl Lewis is right. The Biblical picture of God is lunacy. I won't argue with that. The lunacy actually came from the ancient Hebrews. They are the ones who made up these insane fables. Greek mythology was pretty crazy at times, but Hebrew mythology is totally insane.

I wonder: if the Third Reich had indeed won the war and conquered the world etc, would the equivalent of today's xtians in that world still be trying to pass Hitler off as an atheist? Just a thought.

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Edited to fix embarassing typo. Damn you, keyboard!