In an earlier thread of mine I wanted to figure out the route that would produce the highest probability of getting into heaven. In a response, christian member Drich wrote "avoiding sin is not the Goal of a biblically based Christianity, for all sin has been attoned for, and the believer can stand before God as if he were sinless." What do christians think of this statement? My understanding of christian teaching is that, while everyone is a sinner, a christian must try to avoid sinning? If there is no need to avoid sinning, as we are already forgiven or will be forgiven, then that would imply that a christian can lead a very immoral, sinful life, and it will not jeopardize their immortal soul.

(June 17, 2012 at 6:18 pm)GhostofZeus Wrote: In an earlier thread of mine I wanted to figure out the route that would produce the highest probability of getting into heaven. In a response, christian member Drich wrote "avoiding sin is not the Goal of a biblically based Christianity, for all sin has been attoned for, and the believer can stand before God as if he were sinless." What do christians think of this statement? My understanding of christian teaching is that, while everyone is a sinner, a christian must try to avoid sinning? If there is no need to avoid sinning, as we are already forgiven or will be forgiven, then that would imply that a christian can lead a very immoral, sinful life, and it will not jeopardize their immortal soul.

Again you have twisted what I have said.

One sin, any sin is punishable by the second death/Hell. If you have committed one sin, then you are guilty of breaking all of them. James 2:10 You might follow all of God’s law. But if you fail to obey only one command, you are guilty of breaking all the commands in that law. 11 God said, “Don’t commit adultery.” [c] The same God also said, “Don’t kill.” [d] So if you don’t commit adultery, but you kill someone, you are guilty of breaking all of God’s law.

So if you are guilty of sinning once then you can not 'avoid sin' as your way to heaven. For there is Nothing Man Can Do to Wash away his own sin. So one must seek an alternitive to entering heaven aside from trying to live a sin free life. This alternitive is provided By the Blood sacerfice Christ made. when we live in the attonement of Christ then we cease seeking 'Righteousness' through our own deeds. For Righteousness (or the quality of, or rightness needed to enter heaven) can no longer be earned by a man who has sinned (even once) The Righteousness needed to enter heaven is a gift from God so that no man should boast. Meaning anyone who enters heaven does not deserve to be there. We are there simply because we have accepted His invitation.

That means we take 'good works' off of the table in biblical Christianity as a means to 'earn or deserve' Heaven. So why do we do good works and avoid sin? The answer is a simple one. Because we love God, and God hates sin. If we loved God to the degree required in scripture, then why would we seek to be outside of his will? If a man truly loves his wife does he seek every oppertunity he can get to cheat on her? No. Love dictates that we live for the other, and not for ourselves.

The Goal here is an all encompassing love for God. Not the empty motions of it.

I don't believe in god, therefore, am no sinner.

(June 17, 2012 at 10:20 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: I don't believe in god, therefore, am no sinner.

God says only a fool says there is no sin.

(June 18, 2012 at 12:57 am)Godschild Wrote:

(June 17, 2012 at 10:20 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: I don't believe in god, therefore, am no sinner.

God says only a fool says there is no sin.

Some dude wrote that your god said that.

(June 17, 2012 at 10:00 pm)Drich Wrote: That means we take 'good works' off of the table in biblical Christianity as a means to 'earn or deserve' Heaven. So why do we do good works and avoid sin? The answer is a simple one. Because we love God, and God hates sin. If we loved God to the degree required in scripture, then why would we seek to be outside of his will? If a man truly loves his wife does he seek every oppertunity he can get to cheat on her? No. Love dictates that we live for the other, and not for ourselves.

The Goal here is an all encompassing love for God. Not the empty motions of it.

Why are you incapable of answering the fucking question? Not just in this thread, but every thread.

Everything you spouted in your answer to this OP was well understood and the exact premise of the OP. Do you get it? A premise, not an answer.

You went on about the fact that one sin is equivalent to all sin, but left out the bit about original sin. We don't have to do shit and we are all guilty of all sin. But, this wasn't the question.

Since we are all sinners, we are guilty of all sin. Only our love for god allows us to do good works. This means as long as I believe that a 2000 year old sacrifice absolves me of any personal responsibility I will be forgiven and get to join the country club. I can do whatever the fuck I want, may not be fitting for someone that loves god, but will not prevent me from going to heaven as long as I believe.

Do you get it yet?

(June 18, 2012 at 12:57 am)Godschild Wrote:

(June 17, 2012 at 10:20 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: I don't believe in god, therefore, am no sinner.

God says only a fool says there is no sin.

Um, a book "says" that actually. Hasn't been shown that's the word of God.

Funny how God was supposedly really talkative and intervening in human affairs during the times when the average person was very uncritical, unsceptical, illiterate, and gullible and the sharing of mass information across distances was practically impossible. Now that we have a much more educated and skeptical public (though not as much as I would like), we have cameras everywhere, the internet, 24/7 news, God is all the sudden more antisocial than the deist's God.

(June 17, 2012 at 10:00 pm)Drich Wrote:

(June 17, 2012 at 6:18 pm)GhostofZeus Wrote: In an earlier thread of mine I wanted to figure out the route that would produce the highest probability of getting into heaven. In a response, christian member Drich wrote "avoiding sin is not the Goal of a biblically based Christianity, for all sin has been attoned for, and the believer can stand before God as if he were sinless." What do christians think of this statement? My understanding of christian teaching is that, while everyone is a sinner, a christian must try to avoid sinning? If there is no need to avoid sinning, as we are already forgiven or will be forgiven, then that would imply that a christian can lead a very immoral, sinful life, and it will not jeopardize their immortal soul.

Again you have twisted what I have said.

One sin, any sin is punishable by the second death/Hell. If you have committed one sin, then you are guilty of breaking all of them. James 2:10 You might follow all of God’s law. But if you fail to obey only one command, you are guilty of breaking all the commands in that law. 11 God said, “Don’t commit adultery.” [c] The same God also said, “Don’t kill.” [d] So if you don’t commit adultery, but you kill someone, you are guilty of breaking all of God’s law.

So if you are guilty of sinning once then you can not 'avoid sin' as your way to heaven. For there is Nothing Man Can Do to Wash away his own sin. So one must seek an alternitive to entering heaven aside from trying to live a sin free life. This alternitive is provided By the Blood sacerfice Christ made. when we live in the attonement of Christ then we cease seeking 'Righteousness' through our own deeds. For Righteousness (or the quality of, or rightness needed to enter heaven) can no longer be earned by a man who has sinned (even once) The Righteousness needed to enter heaven is a gift from God so that no man should boast. Meaning anyone who enters heaven does not deserve to be there. We are there simply because we have accepted His invitation.

That means we take 'good works' off of the table in biblical Christianity as a means to 'earn or deserve' Heaven. So why do we do good works and avoid sin? The answer is a simple one. Because we love God, and God hates sin. If we loved God to the degree required in scripture, then why would we seek to be outside of his will? If a man truly loves his wife does he seek every oppertunity he can get to cheat on her? No. Love dictates that we live for the other, and not for ourselves.

The Goal here is an all encompassing love for God. Not the empty motions of it.

I don't see how go from a scripture quote that implies if you commit one sin you commit all sins to "one must seek an alternitive to entering heaven aside from trying to live a sin free life." You provide a lot of your interpretation of the bible but provide no further references to support that interpretation.

That aside, I see your argument as contradictory:

1. avoiding sin won't help you get to heaven as we are all sinners
2. the way to heaven is to love god
3. god hates sin
4. we show our love for god by avoiding sin

If I follow your argument correctly, I believe, I arrive back at my original claim: you need to avoid sin to get to heaven?

(June 18, 2012 at 12:59 am)Annik Wrote:

(June 18, 2012 at 12:57 am)Godschild Wrote: God says only a fool says there is no sin.

Some dude wrote that your god said that.

Exactly. Either I hear it from religious wackos or the bible. I've never heard god say that.

(June 18, 2012 at 2:18 am)Ace Otana Wrote:

(June 18, 2012 at 12:59 am)Annik Wrote: Some dude wrote that your god said that.

Exactly. Either I hear it from religious wackos or the bible. I've never heard god say that.

You were not listening, all you who have ears let him hear.