(June 18, 2012 at 1:28 am)GhostofZeus Wrote:

(June 17, 2012 at 10:00 pm)Drich Wrote: Again you have twisted what I have said.

One sin, any sin is punishable by the second death/Hell. If you have committed one sin, then you are guilty of breaking all of them. James 2:10 You might follow all of God’s law. But if you fail to obey only one command, you are guilty of breaking all the commands in that law. 11 God said, “Don’t commit adultery.” [c] The same God also said, “Don’t kill.” [d] So if you don’t commit adultery, but you kill someone, you are guilty of breaking all of God’s law.

So if you are guilty of sinning once then you can not 'avoid sin' as your way to heaven. For there is Nothing Man Can Do to Wash away his own sin. So one must seek an alternitive to entering heaven aside from trying to live a sin free life. This alternitive is provided By the Blood sacerfice Christ made. when we live in the attonement of Christ then we cease seeking 'Righteousness' through our own deeds. For Righteousness (or the quality of, or rightness needed to enter heaven) can no longer be earned by a man who has sinned (even once) The Righteousness needed to enter heaven is a gift from God so that no man should boast. Meaning anyone who enters heaven does not deserve to be there. We are there simply because we have accepted His invitation.

That means we take 'good works' off of the table in biblical Christianity as a means to 'earn or deserve' Heaven. So why do we do good works and avoid sin? The answer is a simple one. Because we love God, and God hates sin. If we loved God to the degree required in scripture, then why would we seek to be outside of his will? If a man truly loves his wife does he seek every oppertunity he can get to cheat on her? No. Love dictates that we live for the other, and not for ourselves.

The Goal here is an all encompassing love for God. Not the empty motions of it.

I don't see how go from a scripture quote that implies if you commit one sin you commit all sins to "one must seek an alternitive to entering heaven aside from trying to live a sin free life." You provide a lot of your interpretation of the bible but provide no further references to support that interpretation.

That aside, I see your argument as contradictory:

1. avoiding sin won't help you get to heaven as we are all sinners
2. the way to heaven is to love god
3. god hates sin
4. we show our love for god by avoiding sin

If I follow your argument correctly, I believe, I arrive back at my original claim: you need to avoid sin to get to heaven?

What you do is meaningless. There are many (according to Christ in mt7) who not only avoid sin but perform great miricals in his name, but are cast out of heaven. Why? Because again what you do is less important that why you do it. Christ says those who do not do the will of my father, what is His will what is His greatest command? To love the Lord God with all of your being, the second is to love your neighbor as your self. Greatest command was not to avoid sin. Or to do good things in his name.. It was to love God. In said love things like avoiding sin happen, but are not the keys to heaven. Love for God is the key. For a man who goes through the motions of christianity but has no love for God is just as condemned as the unrepentant sinner. Works in of themselves mean nothing.

(June 18, 2012 at 3:59 pm)Drich Wrote: Love for God is the key.

And how am I supposed to "love" a being that has never communicated with me in any way? You might as well say I should "love" Harry Livingston of Toledo, Ohio.

Quote:For a man who goes through the motions of christianity but has no love for God is just as condemned as the unrepentant sinner. Works in of themselves mean nothing.

So I could be a doctor who spends his time traveling the world to bring free medical care to people living in poverty; I could provide scholarships so poor kids can go to college; I could build shelters for homeless people; I could organize relief efforts for people who have been displaced by natural disasters; and for doing all these things I could win awards, medals and have statues built in my honor. But if I don't love your deity I'm doomed to hell working in a firepit next to Hitler? This REALLY makes sense to you? Because if it IS true, your god is an incredible prick.

So, to sum things up, if you don't cut god in on the credit for the good works you've done yourself, you're going to hell. That's awfully petty for a god.

Love me or I will inflict eternal pain on you. Nice.

Of course, then again we have Dreck's version of his mythical "Gawd's love", which is hatred toward the things it supposedly created.

Fucking superstitious twaddle.

(June 18, 2012 at 3:57 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(June 18, 2012 at 3:52 pm)Drich Wrote: God is the God of the Natural universe. so it makes sense that God uses the natural processes to accomplish his will. Just because one can explain how or understand or label these processes now, doesn't make it any less Godly.

Um, God clearly had no concern for natural processes when he was dropping mana from the sky, making donkeys speak, healing blind people, inspiring writers, and raising himself from the dead, etc.

Being the God of the natural universe does not mean He is bound by it. It kinda goes without saying that God does not have to use natural processes, but at the same time He is not bound to the supernatural either.

(June 18, 2012 at 3:49 pm)Drich Wrote: Because the questions most of you asked are based on an incorrect paradyme. Let me ask you this. Who is most likely to have a better understanding of Christianity. The Christian or the one who professes there is no God?

The one who professes there is no God.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/28/...y-20100928

(June 18, 2012 at 4:12 pm)Thor Wrote: And how am I supposed to "love" a being that has never communicated with me in any way? You might as well say I should "love" Harry Livingston of Toledo, Ohio.

god communicates to all who simply ask, seek and knock as outlined in luke 11. He will customize a response to you that only you will recognize and understand.

Quote:So I could be a doctor who spends his time traveling the world to bring free medical care to people living in poverty; I could provide scholarships so poor kids can go to college; I could build shelters for homeless people; I could organize relief efforts for people who have been displaced by natural disasters; and for doing all these things I could win awards, medals and have statues built in my honor. But if I don't love your deity I'm doomed to hell working in a firepit next to Hitler?

Yes, without question, yes..

Quote: This REALLY makes sense to you?

Yes, why? Because all of the good things you have done can not take away your sin. Sin is the amomination that will not allow you into heaven. Nothing else matters. If you have not accepted the attonement offered for your sin then all of your best works are like dirty rags to God because of your sin. (The orginal script describes it best by illustarting your good deeds as a white linen cloth corrupt by the blood of a menstral cycle/sin. this is what is simply translated as 'dirty rags' in the english bible)


Isaiah 64:6

New International Version (NIV)



6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Paul in Phili 3 re uses this illustration to express all of his good deeds as well.

Why because God does not work or count good deeds for anything. Because good deeds do not cancel out sin. Only the blood of Christ wipes sin away.

---

(June 18, 2012 at 4:58 pm)cato123 Wrote:

(June 18, 2012 at 3:49 pm)Drich Wrote: Because the questions most of you asked are based on an incorrect paradyme. Let me ask you this. Who is most likely to have a better understanding of Christianity. The Christian or the one who professes there is no God?

The one who professes there is no God.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/28/...y-20100928

Then why argue with the one who knows God if you truly know better?

How exactly does one 'ask, seek, and knock,' and does god ever show himself to anyone that is looking but is unaware of these criteria?

(June 18, 2012 at 5:18 pm)Faith No More Wrote: How exactly does one 'ask, seek, and knock,' and does god ever show himself to anyone that is looking but is unaware of these criteria?

There is a parable that describes this process.
Luke 11:
5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[e] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.

9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

did you see what we are Ask, seek, knocking for? The Holy Spirit This is the "fish or egg/good gift" we are to try and find. For in the gift of the Holy Spirit we actually have a measure of God that lives in us and directs us.

So we Ask in prayer, we seek, in the bible, church, in questions like this, and we knock by repeating this process till we get what we have been asking and seeking after.

Christ said all it takes is a mustard seed amount of faith to make all of this work.

May i suggest the next question: How do you know when you got what you asked or sought after?

(June 18, 2012 at 5:11 pm)Drich Wrote: god communicates to all who simply ask, seek and knock as outlined in luke 11. He will customize a response to you that only you will recognize and understand.

What a pantload! Your deity has never communicated with me in any way. And if he thinks he has communicated with me, he is mistaken. But how could that be when your god doesn't make mistakes? Could it be that he just doesn't exist at all?

Quote:Because all of the good things you have done can not take away your sin.

WHAT sin? I just described a person who is selfless and does all he can to help others. He just doesn't believe your deity is real. And that's enough to ship him off to fire camp for eternity?

Quote:Sin is the amomination that will not allow you into heaven. Nothing else matters.

If your "sin" is mass murder I might agree with this statement. The "sin" of simple disbelief? Absolutely ridiculous. But then, the idea of heaven and hell are equally ridiculous.

Quote:If you have not accepted the attonement offered for your sin then all of your best works are like dirty rags to God because of your sin.

And what of people who were born in a geographic region where they weren't exposed to your deity? Are they doomed for not believing in a god they never heard of?