(August 3, 2012 at 5:35 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Theologically, sin is a form of cancer.
Prayer cures that.

Besides, if there were no correlation between prayer and health, you would have to think of another reason why religious people live longer.

Citation needed.

(August 3, 2012 at 5:35 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Theologically, sin is a form of cancer.
Prayer cures that.

Besides, if there were no correlation between prayer and health, you would have to think of another reason why religious people live longer.

Apparently, studies show that religious people live longer by exactly the same margin as people who have received lobotomies. So, whatever the reason, it must account for how both the religious and the brain dead outlive clear thinking folk. Pray on it.

Welcome to AF new guy!

(August 3, 2012 at 12:55 am)C.W. Sims Wrote: I read the rest of your post, couldn't have cared less, but had to respond to this. Chanting is not what you think it is, neither are you correct in your interpretation of "repetitive prayer". Go ask a priest what that phrase originally meant and get back to me.

Just a question, not saying anything eitherway, but how do you know I am not one?

Quote: Hint: It had to do with people uttering prayers for no reason other than that they had been taught.

This is how I have used this word

Quote: Which is why it actually translates as "vain repetition". It also ties into the fact that they believed the other people were praying to a non-existent god or gods so their prayers could of course never be answered

Actually no. the word in the greek is: battalogeō
1) to stammer

2) to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate. Some suppose the word derived from Battus, a king of Cyrene, who is said to have stuttered; others from Battus, an author of tedious and wordy poems.

Quote:Chanting in any religion is supposed to be used to open the mind by helping one drown out distractions and focus only on that subject they wish to be focused on, i.e. God, Enlightenment, etc. You again were confused when you connected chanting with vain repetition. They are not at all the same thing and it is Christian arrogance to link the two. Chanting has been an integral part of religions the world over for much longer than the Jesus mythology has been around. It is a time honored tradition that has nothing to do with supplication but is a meditative tool.

It seems to be a mixture of Christian arrogance fueled by a Lexicon and the proper usage of the greek word in question.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...G945&t=KJV
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chant

Quote:Now you are bang on about petition and the fact that most people who are religious almost always pray only as a petition for special favor. I saw this time and again when I was going to church and it always struck me as funny and a little sad.

Since this is in the religion sub-forum I have no problem discussing this with you. But be prepared to hear a different opinion based on someone who has been involved with, and studied different religions since he was 13 and is now 27. I don't back down from a fight if I know I am right, but I am open minded and willing to listen to your side so long as you aren't trying to shove it down my throat. Also if I am wrong and you have valid resources I will be more than happy to learn. So if you would like we can discuss. It's up to you.

[/quote]
Good to know and again welcome to AF

Drich, nothing you said there explains why rehearsed prayers are bad besides this one.

And what's with this "indebted" nonsense anyway? We all know True Christians™ say "as we forgive those who trespass against us."

(August 3, 2012 at 2:01 am)Minimalist Wrote: So..."jesus" was a liar, according to you?

Matthew 21:

Quote:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Maybe it only works on fig trees and mountains? That would seem to make it fairly fucking worthless...unless you grow figs on a mountain.

two seperat things here.. Unless you believe christ prayed that the fig tree would never bear fruit again before He cursed it, and also we have the model of what a prayer is, and drying up fig trees moving mountains has nothing to do with prayer. the bit about the mountains and fig trees was about simple faith and the authority given them. It had nothing to do with what they asked in prayer.

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(August 3, 2012 at 6:41 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(August 3, 2012 at 12:16 am)Drich Wrote: Does everyone know the difference between chanting, petition and prayer? More often than not when people say they 'pray' they are actually petitioning God for things they want. Making Prayer little more than a formal wishing cermony. God is not a magical genie who's job it is to grant you wishes. Nor is He obligated to hear or respond to wishes.

At the same time Prayer is not a rehearsed or practice chant. Christ says the Father hates these meaningless many worded chants. at first glance the Lord's prayer is one of these chants, but upon closer inspection we find an outline rather than a perscribed word for word prayer/chant.

Does anyone want to know or discuss the formula behind the outline? It will transform a wishing cermony into a prayer that God will respond to.

So if it is not to ask god for favours, what then is the point of prayer?

In short, to train you to seek God's will over your own. If you can accept this you will absolutly have everything you have prayed for and more!

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(August 3, 2012 at 7:21 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: As far as I am to understand the Chants, petitions and prayers are used by arrogant religous people to subvert their god's will.

Indeed.

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(August 3, 2012 at 12:44 pm)Stimbo Wrote: In my experience, the whole purpose of praying is to give the person doing it a chance to tell you they're doing it ("Hey, look how selfless I'm being just for you!"). Else what's the point, if nobody knows? If prayer worked at all, it would work regardless of whether the prayee knows you've done it.

It's like using the ignore facility here; you can quietly stick some arsehole on ignore, or you can make a Busby Berkeley production number about doing it so nobody is in any doubt.

Again I agree the self righteous have taken over prayer for their own glory and gain.

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(August 3, 2012 at 12:53 pm)Thor Wrote: But doesn't "God" have a plan? And if he answers your prayers, wouldn't that cause him to alter his plan?
"Dear God, please cure me of my cancer. It hurts me a lot and I'm tired of being in hospitals all the time. I just want to run and play with the other kids. And my mommy cries all the time."

God: YOU WANT ME TO CURE YOUR CANCER? DON'T YOU REALIZE I HAVE A PLAN AND YOUR CANCER IS PART OF THAT PLAN?!?!? YOU WANT ME TO ALTER MY PLAN FOR THE UNIVERSE JUST FOR YOU!?!? LEAVE ME ALONE YA LITTLE BRAT!

What if the same mechinism that allows for freewill also caused all manner of suffering? (like cancer) Would you be willing to give up your free will to cure billy's cancer?

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(August 3, 2012 at 1:17 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(August 3, 2012 at 12:16 am)Drich Wrote: Does everyone know the difference between chanting, petition and prayer?

I would have thought prayer was somewhere between an incantation and talking to yourself in your head. Is there really any more to it than that?

you have a fair assessment on what prayer has become, and it can mean more but it depends on who you ask.

(August 3, 2012 at 6:03 pm)Drich Wrote: Welcome to AF new guy!

(August 3, 2012 at 12:55 am)C.W. Sims Wrote: I read the rest of your post, couldn't have cared less, but had to respond to this. Chanting is not what you think it is, neither are you correct in your interpretation of "repetitive prayer". Go ask a priest what that phrase originally meant and get back to me. Just a question, not saying anything eitherway, but how do you know I am not one?

This is how I have used this word

Actually no. the word in the greek is: battalogeō
1) to stammer

2) to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate. Some suppose the word derived from Battus, a king of Cyrene, who is said to have stuttered; others from Battus, an author of tedious and wordy poems.

It seems to be a mixture of Christian arrogance fueled by a Lexicon and the proper usage of the greek word in question.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...G945&t=KJV
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chant

Good to know and again welcome to AF

You are still confused as to the reason Jesus is said to have given the directive to avoid vain repetition. It was not because they were repeating the words, it was because they were repeating them without truly believing them and still has nothing at all to do with chanting. Chanting is something entirely different, unless you count the monks in the Catholic tradition who chant the prayers and psalms. However, even in this case, the chanting is still not vain repetition. To call it so is incredibly rude seeing as those who consider themselves Catholic, especially the monks and nuns, hold these chants to be sacred and filled with meaning. They feel that chanting them brings them into a closer communion with the god they worship.

I do apologize if I got the correct translation of the word wrong. I am not one to stand here and say I was write if I wasn't. So in the proper translation department I must concede to you unless I can be bothered to go research it and find that you are wrong, and frankly I don't care enough to do that right at this moment.

However I still hold that my original statement was true. You are maligning the word chant by grafting it onto the meaning of vain repetition. For those who use chants as a real and sacred way to tune their mind to whatever they feel to be divine they are certainly not guilty of vain repetition as you seem to adamant to say they are.

Oh, and thank you for the welcome.

(August 3, 2012 at 1:03 am)Lion IRC Wrote:

(August 3, 2012 at 12:34 am)Rhythm Wrote: Strange, he seems to be in the wish granting business at least some of the time. I mean hell, if he couldn't do something simple like find your car keys....useless as tits on a boar.

Dont forget, sometimes the answer to a prayer is in the form of;

...''no ''

or

...''not now''

or

...''here, take this instead - it's better'''

I also like that other (biblical) word for prayer - meditation.

Meditation has definite health benefits.

Or silence.... because you're basically talking to yourself.

(August 3, 2012 at 5:41 pm)C.W. Sims Wrote: Drich, darling, is there a reason you ignored my entire post about this? Did you feel it was too detailed to answer the questions or did you not mean that you wished to discuss the points you had made and only wanted to discuss the Lord's Prayer?

Just gotta learn to wait you turn sport. I answer question in the order they are asked.

Hmm. how to proceed with the rest of your.. What was the word you used in your first post?? ...Arrogant Was it? Your arrogant post???

Well as you can plainly see i have no issue stepping up to your most "difficult and detailed" post, 'answering' your points and shutting down your arguement from legitmate reference materials... (And I didn't even have to ask a priest to define anything for me) As you are new here i will cut you a brake, and I am willing to not make of foolish mockery of your efforts if you can play nice.

If not, you'd better show a stronger acuity in your exegetical efforts from here on out, otherwise you will be made to answer for your half hearted work, in a way that mirrors the arrogance you have posed to me.

Stay true to your closing paragraph in your first post and we will do just fine.

You're still avoiding the issue that you raised in the OP, which is that the Lord's prayer is somehow exempt from the condemnation of rehearsed prayer.

(August 3, 2012 at 6:47 pm)Drich Wrote: As you are new here i will cut you a brake, and I am willing to not make of foolish mockery of your efforts if you can play nice.

If not, you'd better show a stronger acuity in your exegetical efforts from here on out, otherwise you will be made to answer for your half hearted work, in a way that mirrors the arrogance you have posed to me.

Stay true to your closing paragraph in your first post and we will do just fine.

For dramatic threatening affect, you did fine but try adding something like this next time to really punch it up and drive it home.

http://youtu.be/FD3vk6C9Vgw