(August 5, 2012 at 1:55 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

Drich Wrote:so if you were a gun manufacture you are responsiable for all murder and crimes committed with a gun of your design? Or are those crimes a product of free will and your gun becomes a tool for someone to excersize their own will over another.

A terrible analogy. A better one would be if you handed someone a gun, knew they would be irresponsible with it, were capable of stopping them, but just sat there as they went on a killing spree, would you have any culpibility in the situation? You're damn right, and that's what your god does.

So the reason it is a terriable analogy is because it does not lend itself to your line of thought and you can not turn it on me unless you change it?... Seriouly? For me, that makes it a good analogy.

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(August 5, 2012 at 2:40 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote:

(August 5, 2012 at 1:01 pm)Drich Wrote: What is the life expectancy of a Japaneese christian and a Shinto/buddhist who lives in America?
&
Why does a Christian who has an eternity planned out with the God He loves with all of His being want to be here in this life any longer than He needs to be?
This life is a curse or rather plagued with curses. It is the closest thing to a satan run realm there is. Only those who Fear the comming judgement see death as the curse.

So if christians don't live so long it is because they are yearning to be with their lord, and don't care to be in this world.
But if they live longer (than average) it is because of the glory of Jesus keeping them healthy.

Isn't that having your cake and eating it ?

Regards

Grimesy

you guys are killing me to day!

Where are the stats i asked for?

Drich Wrote:So the reason it is a terriable analogy is because it does not lend itself to your line of thought and you can not turn it on me unless you change it?... Seriouly? For me, that makes it a good analogy.

No, dumbass. Your analogy fails, because it fails to take into account god's omnipotence and omniscience.

You might want to hold off laughing at people, because most of the time, the things that people say here go right over your head.

(August 5, 2012 at 3:02 pm)Stimbo Wrote: What a pathetically egotistical attitude to the existence that you believe your creator gave you. Out of all the thousands of sperm that were denied the chance of occupying your position in space and time, the winner grew up to be an ungrateful arsehole? If and when you stand before your god and it turns out to be me, I'd tell you exactly where you can go and what you can to to yourself when you got there.

i would have thought 'god' would have been smart enough to maintain the segergation between body and soul that he/you (appearently) establishes in the bible. Meaning despite which sperm made it, we would still be the same soul. The only difference being minor genetic variations. Meaning dispite what we look like the "Made in the Image of God" part (our soul) remains the same. Has the student surpassed the master? or are you just pretending to be someone you are not?

Quote:So in that spirit I turn your question back upon you: why aren't you in a hurry to be with the god you love with all your being? Do you look both ways when crossing the street?

I have face death, and no longer fear it. It truly matters not if i die today or 100 years from now. My only concern with this life is that do what i have been sent here to do. and Yes i seek to do it as quickly as possiable so i can go home. I'm 36 and have made my arrangements to die. so i if go now my faimly will be well taken care of.

I too have no fear of death and I have already shared my account of the origins of that position in this forum. As for the rest, I would have liked nothing better than to engage you in a deep and sincere discussion about the metaphysical ramifications of being the winning sperm in the race for material existence, not to mention perceived manifestations of the human soul and concomitant responsibilities for having such bestowed upon us. Unfortunately, I do not appear to have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about.

(August 5, 2012 at 6:32 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

Drich Wrote:So the reason it is a terriable analogy is because it does not lend itself to your line of thought and you can not turn it on me unless you change it?... Seriouly? For me, that makes it a good analogy.

No, dumbass. Your analogy fails, because it fails to take into account god's omnipotence and omniscience.

You might want to hold off laughing at people, because most of the time, the things that people say here go right over your head.

What fails is that you do not understand what 'tool' Is being discussed. The 'tool' or gun here is free will or the ablity to sin. God knew the evil that would come of our ablity to be outside of His expressed will and provided attonement for it (so it did take into account God's omnipotence even if you could not connect the dots on your own) We were given 'freewill' and we misused it. We took that tool and turned it on God to be outside of His expressed will, rather to be in it and under His protection. Protection (among other things) from things like cancer in our children.

So i ask again if the cure for cancer (even timmy's) came at the cost of 'free will' would you gladly give up your free will? will you give back your gun?

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(August 5, 2012 at 6:45 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I too have no fear of death and I have already shared my account of the origins of that position in this forum. As for the rest, I would have liked nothing better than to engage you in a deep and sincere discussion about the metaphysical ramifications of being the winning sperm in the race for material existence, not to mention perceived manifestations of the human soul and concomitant responsibilities for having such bestowed upon us. Unfortunately, I do not appear to have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about.

Far be it from me to say god/stevie and appearently now stimbo, does not know about 'material existance.' i simply pointed out the change in your doctrine from what 'you' had orginally written in scripture, is not consistent with the mordern understing of 'material existance' that you seem to be wanting to push now.

Drich Wrote:What fails is that you do not understand what 'tool' Is being discussed. The 'tool' or gun here is free will or the ablity to sin. God knew the evil that would come of our ablity to be outside of His expressed will and provided attonement for it (so it did take into account God's omnipotence even if you could not connect the dots on your own) We were given 'freewill' and we misused it. We took that tool and turned it on God to be outside of His expressed will, rather to be in it and under His protection. Protection (among other things) from things like cancer in our children.

Whether the 'tool' is free will or a gun is irrelevant. What is relevant is an omnipotent, omniscient deity's culpability in giving human beings this tool when it would cause such horrible things as a child being ravaged and eventually killed by a horrible disease. When you take into account that the reason he gave us free will was simply so we could choose whether or not to do what he wanted us to, said deity becomes a sadistic bastard. Your god is more concerned with playing games with people's souls than alleviating suffering.

'Drich Wrote:So i ask again if the cure for cancer (even timmy's) came at the cost of 'free will' would you gladly give up your free will? will you give back your gun?

Absolutely, I would give it up in a second if that meant that no one had to be ravished by cancer, raped, molested, tortured, or murdered. What disturbs me, however, is you seem to be asking this as some kind of 'gotcha' question as if you believed my answer would be no. Which leads me to think that your answer to the question is no.

(August 5, 2012 at 3:02 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Worrying about tomorrow (Luke 12:29) causes stress. Stress causes disease.
Drich is pointing out that Christians have a win/win scenario.

Except that you don't. Drich points to many things, even (and especially) when they aren't there.

(August 5, 2012 at 7:54 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Whether the 'tool' is free will or a gun is irrelevant. What is relevant is an omnipotent, omniscient deity's culpability in giving human beings this tool when it would cause such horrible things as a child being ravaged and eventually killed by a horrible disease. When you take into account that the reason he gave us free will was simply so we could choose whether or not to do what he wanted us to, said deity becomes a sadistic bastard. Your god is more concerned with playing games with people's souls than alleviating suffering.

Why do you believe suffering is something that God is always obligated to alleviate?

Quote:Absolutely, I would give it up in a second if that meant that no one had to be ravished by cancer, raped, molested, tortured, or murdered. What disturbs me, however, is you seem to be asking this as some kind of 'gotcha' question as if you believed my answer would be no. Which leads me to think that your answer to the question is no.

It's not a 'gottcha question.' Either you want to be under the authority and control of God or you do not. This is not a what if question. This is the foundational element of the 'free will' we have been given, so we all may personally answer this question for ourselves. If you do as you say, the surrender/humble yourself to God, accept the attonement offered by Christ, and pray for his Kingdom to come/Pray for the second comming of Christ.

(August 5, 2012 at 1:26 pm)Drich Wrote: so if you were a gun manufacture you are responsiable for all murder and crimes committed with a gun of your design? Or are those crimes a product of free will and your gun becomes a tool for someone to excersize their own will over another.

Actually, I think I can blame God for all murders and crimes committed with guns. Being all-knowing and all-powerful means you're stuck with the blame for everything bad, because you could have made all bad things impossible and consciously chose not to.

But, so as to not actually avoid the question, the analogy is terrible. A gun manufacturer is not all-powerful. God is. Therefore, nothing which happens is an accident, a point many Christians happily accept with such sayings as 'God works in mysterious ways' or 'everything happens for a reason' or 'it's all part of God's plan'.

It is nothing short of criminal that God made cancer in the first place, but that he intentionally kills people with it, for any reason at all, is enough proof for me that if your idea of God was real, he would be evil and not worth a minute of prayer or love from even the worst human being to ever exist.

Quote:If you have a problem with guns then replace with a hammer or a car or medicine, or anything else used is such away to excersize one person's will over another. The Gun is a tool, but because of we live in a Realm apart from the will of God, we have now become responsiable for managing everything in that realm.

So, what sort of problem is fixed by a tool like cancer?

Quote:Cancer still exists because man has fallen short of his responsiablity to rule this world. Cancer and bad things like it are the result of living outside of God's protection or plan. Cancer and all other bad things can go away, but you are going to have to trade your ablity to sin for it. rather you will have to trade 'free will' inorder to live under God's rule. so you decide. If you want to rid the world of Cancer then learn to pray "God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven." if you want to live for your self and go on blaming God because you do not want to yield to Him, then you are free to do that as well. You have that 'choice.'

No. A god who would use cancer to get people to act the way he wants can go fuck himself. The free will argument doesn't cut it, either. Free will cannot exist if there is a God handing out gruesome and psychotic punishment if that will is exercised in any way he doesn't like. That's the sort of free will you'd get in the Stalinist Soviet Union or North Korea.

(August 5, 2012 at 9:44 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(August 5, 2012 at 1:26 pm)Drich Wrote: so if you were a gun manufacture you are responsiable for all murder and crimes committed with a gun of your design? Or are those crimes a product of free will and your gun becomes a tool for someone to excersize their own will over another.

Actually, I think I can blame God for all murders and crimes committed with guns. Being all-knowing and all-powerful means you're stuck with the blame for everything bad, because you could have made all bad things impossible and consciously chose not to.

But, so as to not actually avoid the question, the analogy is terrible. A gun manufacturer is not all-powerful. God is. Therefore, nothing which happens is an accident, a point many Christians happily accept with such sayings as 'God works in mysterious ways' or 'everything happens for a reason' or 'it's all part of God's plan'.

It is nothing short of criminal that God made cancer in the first place, but that he intentionally kills people with it, for any reason at all, is enough proof for me that if your idea of God was real, he would be evil and not worth a minute of prayer or love from even the worst human being to ever exist.

Quote:If you have a problem with guns then replace with a hammer or a car or medicine, or anything else used is such away to excersize one person's will over another. The Gun is a tool, but because of we live in a Realm apart from the will of God, we have now become responsiable for managing everything in that realm.

So, what sort of problem is fixed by a tool like cancer?

Quote:Cancer still exists because man has fallen short of his responsiablity to rule this world. Cancer and bad things like it are the result of living outside of God's protection or plan. Cancer and all other bad things can go away, but you are going to have to trade your ablity to sin for it. rather you will have to trade 'free will' inorder to live under God's rule. so you decide. If you want to rid the world of Cancer then learn to pray "God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven." if you want to live for your self and go on blaming God because you do not want to yield to Him, then you are free to do that as well. You have that 'choice.'

No. A god who would use cancer to get people to act the way he wants can go fuck himself. The free will argument doesn't cut it, either. Free will cannot exist if there is a God handing out gruesome and psychotic punishment if that will is exercised in any way he doesn't like. That's the sort of free will you'd get in the Stalinist Soviet Union or North Korea.

Do you seriously need me to break everything i have said down for you specifically or can you be bother to actually read some of the other post made.. Like for instance from the person you decided to speak for. Did you not think this person was 'smart enough' to cover the same points you did? If your going to try and hijack someone elses conversation at least bring up a point or two not already covered by the orginal dialog.