(September 19, 2012 at 6:21 am)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: So if we want to look into, "what if he is who he says he is," the question arrises, "What did he come here for?"

You failed to present the other side... but I'm sure you were counting on atheists to go there.
The "what if he isn't who the book claims him to be"?
Atheists just see this position as the default: People are people, not gods; regardless of what they claim.

We then allow for the claim, if enough proof is provided. Apparently, the people who wrote the book thought proof was necessary too, so they provided: healing, walking on water, resurrection and all round teaching how to behave.
How can we tell if what these people wrote really did happen?
We can't. So we go to the default position: people are people and not gods. People can't heal others just by touching them, people can't walk on water, people can't resurrect.


There is a time in a person's life, when the default position is not that. It's: whatever the grownups say is true.
And that's when you plant the seeds of moving away from the reasonable/mundane/real(?)/most accurate/best/experience based/secular/atheistic default position.

@Drich

-On the issue of god and gravity-

Firstly, no one expects you to "believe" in gravity, and laying aside this common and amatuerish attempt at equivocation, suppose you didn't "believe" in gravity? It is possible, if you were so inclined, to educate yourself on the subject. You could repeat the experiments, you could devise your own experiments, you could formulate a different hypothesis as to what is actually occurring. All of this is demonstrable, quantifiable. At no point will you have to resort to "I believe" nor will anyone else interested in your investigations and conclusions on the subject of gravity be forced, compelled, or even persuaded to "believe". All I see here is an attempt to excuse ignorance in one instance so that one might feel more comfortable excusing ignorance in another. What really grinds my gears is the response to the next comment, about "shunning formal education". Well, clearly that doesn't seem to be a problem for you but let me help to explain why the two examples (god and gravity,in this case) are entirely dissimilar; and by extension why your comments on the matter are soup sandwich. You could, as explained above, educate yourself on the subject of gravity. There is knowledge to be had. On the other hand, were you to read the bible and believe in the bible unto the end of days you would -know- precisely as much about god as you did before you had ever even heard the word god. Which is to say, jack shit. Belief =/= Knowledge, no matter how strongly you believe it ( or how often you repeat it).

-On my favorite conversational droppings...platitudes-

"The process starts with Want".
Yes, the process of wishing, wishful thinking, and wish fulfillment begins with want. If you "wish" for this process to proceed past the point of fantasy something else will be required. Something you have flat out refused to provide, something which you have eroded at every mention, and something which you spend considerable amounts of time attempting to devalue right out of the gate. This is exactly why your fantasies are about as far from compelling as something can possibly be, for me, personally.

"Gods plan"
Roger, roger, you feel comfortable invoking The Divine Plan™ but not the divine gaffs. Look, this is blisteringly simple. If you want to invoke a plan (and a planner) its childish to then contort yourself any convenient old way to excuse said planner for the deficiencies in said plan. There is good and bad to be responsible for if this is all a plan. If you want the credit, you accept the culpability. (and yes, Drich, I said "you"...because that's all I see in this thread, no god, just Drich. I say your plan is shit.)

"He tells us through the bible"
No, human beings tell you things through the bible. That is the only demonstrable part of this equation. Unless you can establish that any hand other than mans went into this fairy tale you're just jerking your inner fairies pecker on this count. It is not a response to a question, it is not an explanation, it's an empty phrase.

-On dogs-
This provides me with a great opportunity to express precisely why I'm glad I'm not a dog, and why I refuse to willingly become one. We kill dogs who attack human beings not because it is right, or just, but because we can. We have absolute power over the lives of those animals, and largely, we don't extend much in the way of consideration to them that we might extend to another human being (though we do often treat each other "like a dog". If whether or not we kept a dog that mauled a child had anything to say on the subject of a god and why a god does the things it does than we are accomplishing nothing less than a comparison of mans pitiless extermination of creatures who have ceased to be useful to him with gods extermination of man (and just when we might think that it couldn't get any more idiotic and cruel, remember that man merely destroys the dog's body, god's wetwork involves some "immortal soul").

-God (and mans) righteousness-
I disagree, if god were to chase down mans righteousness he would at least be worthy of having a conversation and a cup of coffee with. As it stands this god is barely worth the rope hanging from the yard arm. In that scenario (god chasing our morality) god would be at the very least our equal, instead of the boogeyman it currently is. Let's be clear here, I'm not the one looking for a servant out of any god, that would be you amigo. You require that this god be bound by some shitty little fanfic written by people who; I would hazard a guess; had less "moral fiber" in their entire body than you have in your pinky (all the bullshit on these forums aside). God can be nothing other than what has been written, and specifically what you have accepted. Who's making the demands here, who's seeking a servant?

-"Suffering comes to us all like it or not, when our number is called we can suffer with or without God. I choose to suffer for purpose and mean. However if you wish to deprive you and your family of that, then that desision is on you."-
Agreed, suffering comes to us all, in some way or another, to varying degrees. This sort of comment is a really interesting one, because it demonstrates that the author is capable of stringing words together that have some relation to reality -even if it can only be maintained for a single sentence before diving headfirst into a shallow pool of passive aggressive fantasy. You choose something indeed, you've chosen a purpose for your suffering, regardless of whether or not it actually exists (and you clearly aren't interested in demonstrating that it does- if you were, you would have done so by now). What makes you think that you are somehow different to anyone else on this count? Most of us manufacture our own little purposes and reasons for this and that just as you have here. What fantasies some might wish to deprive their families of is firstly, -no business of yours- and lastly, -no business of yours-. I also find it beyond annoying that you would make such thinly veiled threats with some unknown persons family as the hook. Douche-move from the groveling servant of the douche-god. I suppose this shouldn't suprise me, "spare the rod"

-Child services is not meant to be the primary source of care for all children. Child services holds neglegent parents accountable for their actions.-
Correct, Child services holds negligent parents accountable (a title which your god proposition clearly qualifies for) and if those parents are deemed to be unfit (to reverse the roles...a condemnation clearly made by your god against ourselves) it then assumes responsibility for the well-being of the child (an action plainly beyond your cunt of a god, content to simply wash it's hands and damn the child..in this case..literally).

"Man, do as I say and not as I do!"

"Our only task is to point people in the direction to find said evidence on their own when asked."
Then start pointing, hooah? If the things you point to aren't evidence at all then you aren't doing your "task", eh?

(September 18, 2012 at 9:08 pm)Drich Wrote:

(September 18, 2012 at 10:08 am)TaraJo Wrote: I figure, if god is all knowing, it knows what criteria would have to be met to prove its existence to me. If god is all powerful, meeting that criteria is well within its reach.

You have acknoweledged God is all knowing and All powerful, and yet you command Him to seek you to save Your soul? Respectfully: Doesn't this sound silly to you? Who are you to command god to Ask, Seek and Knock for yoour attention? Isn't the Death of His Son enough for you?
Let me put it this way. If you were invited to the White House for a presidential dinner with all the world leaders present, would you demand a change of venue and demand to the world leaders that they meet you on their terms? If you did how many world leaders do you think would meet you on your terms simply because you demanded it?

That would be a good analogy, except that according to Judeo Christian mythology, god is the one making demands of me. I gotta believe, I gotta kiss his ass and I gotta follow a few hundred rules many of which don't make sense with zero evidence that he actually exists. I don't buy it.

So let's make this metaphor a little more accurate, shall we? Right now, I've got the president of the Illuminati on the phone. They're secretly controlling every government on earth. They could take you out in a second if they want to, but they don't. They love you and want a personal relationship with you. All you have to do to accept their relationship is take a whole bottle of sleeping pills. I know, I know, you probably think that will kill you, but if you really have faith, you'll be just fine.

So, does anyone want to explain why that second metaphor seems more comparable to Christian God? And if you were in this situation, wouldn't you ask for the Illuminati to do just a token gesture to show that they actually exist before you make mistakes that you can't un-make?

Quote:No where in the bible does it say God is Omni benevolent. This is a false doctrine spun from the Greek word Agape'. It mean an limitless love. God's love maybe limitless, but it remains conditional. In that God's limitless love is reserved for those who Love and Choose Him. Not all are entitled to God's Love.

So, you're saying God is an almighty narcissist? Love me or I hate you? It sure seems that way because if you don't accept his love, you get tortured for eternity. The big problem there is still pretty much the same, though: if god actually wanted someone to love him, he might do something, anything, to show that he even actually exists.

So, again, let's use a little metaphor here, shall we? Let's say my parents had another baby, before I was born, this one that I don't know about and one whose existence isn't in any historical record like family picture albums, or medical records, right? Let's say further that this child leaves and I never see him or her for 30 years, right? Would I be expected to love a brother/sister who, as far as I know doesn't even exist? Maybe you can, in a "you're my sibling so I have to love you way" or "I love all people way" but on a personal level, no, you can't. But you don't reject this sibling, either. I mean, fuck, all it would take is a picture of an older brother or meeting my big sister or something like that and, yeah, I'll be on board. And that's the point: God has given me just as much evidence that he exists as said hypothetical sibling: none! So why should I believe in one any more than I do the other?

Quote:

Quote: So far, I haven't seen any supernatural deity so much as lift a finger to reveal themselves to me.

Nor will you. For you like everyone else has been commanded to humble themselves to God. If you do then God WILL Lift you up.

I'd be glad to humble myself before god, as long as I'm humbling myself before a god that actually exists. After all, I don't want to fall into a trap and start worshiping a false god that's actually a demon..... do you?

Quote:

Quote:So I made a deal with anything out there you might consider a god: show me that you actually exist and I'll worship you.

I think mohamad made a simlar 'deal.' For God is not the only being out there who will answer a plea.

Interesting. If that's the case, it looks like Islam actually makes more sense than Christianity, at least as far as that goes. However, Allah also hasn't responded to my request.

Quote:

Quote: I haven't had any responses; this silence leads me to believe that god either doesn't exist or wants me to believe it doesn't exist (and if my disbelief is part of god's plan, who am I to question gods plan?).

Your disbelief or rather you ablity to disbelieve is apart of God's plan.

Same difference. Anyway, free will is quite possibly the worst defense here that I can think of simply because the Bible repeatedly argues AGAINST free will. I mean, fuck, just the basic premise argues against it: we sin because we have free will but we don't have enough free will to not sin and therefore Jesus had to die for us.

It's also worth noting, on the subject of free will; you know the whole "Jesus helps those who help themselves" thing? Yeah the bible never says that, but it DOES say you have to basically do a lot of praying and waiting and hoping and more praying and more waiting and worshiping and if you do then MAYBE god will help you. Maybe. But only if you're chosen and pious enough.

Yeah. God REALLY wants us to exert our free will, doesn't he? As long as that free will is exerted only towards polishing his buttpucker.

(September 18, 2012 at 9:25 pm)Polaris Wrote: Convincing is very easy, but such methods are often looked down upon.

I don't care if people look down on these "very easy to convince people" methods...

Use said methods on me.

(September 19, 2012 at 11:11 am)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: I don't care if people look down on these "very easy to convince people" methods...

Use said methods on me.

You seem a clever lad, you've seen your father die tilling the land, your mother is lost to madness, your sisters look to you for more.

You know you can't change it, join us, help us manage the flock.

(September 19, 2012 at 11:06 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: It's also worth noting, on the subject of free will; you know the whole "Jesus helps those who help themselves" thing?

We've got a newsagent around here which has the old classic anti-shoplifter sign on the wall: "God help those who help themselves".

Just thought I'd toss that in, there.

[quote='TaraJo' pid='338521' dateline='1348066772']
[quote]That would be a good analogy, except that according to Judeo Christian mythology, god is the one making demands of me.[/quote]Actually no. This is your understanding of Christianity. In biblical Christianity God has asked you to make a desision. Either choose to be with Him or seperated from Him and all that He has created.

[quote] I gotta believe, I gotta kiss his ass and I gotta follow a few hundred rules many of which don't make sense with zero evidence that he actually exists. I don't buy it. [/quote]Neither do I nor any other bible believing Christians. For Christ scarfice has freed us from the law or the "Few Hundred rules" as our only means to finding salvation.

[quote]So, does anyone want to explain why that second metaphor seems more comparable to Christian God?[/quote]In reality it doesn't it just seem more accurate to fit your understanding of God and Christianity.

[quote]So, you're saying God is an almighty narcissist? Love me or I hate you? It sure seems that way because if you don't accept his love, you get tortured for eternity. [/quote] If you do not want to be with God for eternity praising and worshiping Him wouldn't being forced into doing that for all eternity be a kin to eternal torture? As it is now you get to choose to either be with God or seperated from Him.

[quote] The big problem there is still pretty much the same, though: if god actually wanted someone to love him, he might do something, anything, to show that he even actually exists.[/quote]Why do you believe He doesn't?
He makes a very specific set of promises to those who ask seek and knock for Him.

[quote]So, again, let's use a little metaphor here, shall we? Let's say my parents had another baby, before I was born, this one that I don't know about and one whose existence isn't in any historical record like family picture albums, or medical records, right? Let's say further that this child leaves and I never see him or her for 30 years, right? Would I be expected to love a brother/sister who, as far as I know doesn't even exist? [/quote]But would you purposly ignore or even hate her just because she never sought you out?

[quote] Maybe you can, in a "you're my sibling so I have to love you way" or "I love all people way" but on a personal level, no, you can't. [/quote]God does not expect this. He tells us that all we have to do is have the faith of a mustard seed and He will move heaven and earth for us. It is from this working together that true love is built. just like it would be with your unknown sister. IF you had the smallest amount of faith in the story of your long lost sister and sought her out your meeting would be just the start of a bond that would not easily be broken.

[quote]But you don't reject this sibling, either. I mean, fuck, all it would take is a picture of an older brother or meeting my big sister or something like that and, yeah, I'll be on board. [/quote]Then simply ask God for the Picture He promises in Luke 11. Then activly seek it out and don't quit till you get what you have been asking and seeking after.

[quote] And that's the point: God has given me just as much evidence that he exists as said hypothetical sibling: none! So why should I believe in one any more than I do the other? [/quote]What have you asked for? I remember you telling God that He should seek you out. I am not asking you that. I am asking what have you done that resembles the task put upon us to seek out God?

[quote]I'd be glad to humble myself before god, as long as I'm humbling myself before a god that actually exists. After all, I don't want to fall into a trap and start worshiping a false god that's actually a demon..... do you?[/quote]How could you know the difference?

Unfortunately for the con you're selling earth remains firm and heaven is nowhere to be found regardless of how many mustard seeds one amasses for themselves. I like the notion that there is some place that god isn't - by all accounts it looks like that place might be -this- place (unless you're ready to do some of that pointing you mentioned). Bullshitters make all sorts of promises, promises which they have no ability (nor intention) to make good upon. Your god is in precisely this position as an expression of your own fantasies. What promises can you make me Drich? None, nada, zip. What promises do I want from you Drich? Well, maybe one, that you'll stop marketing this garbage. Neither of us will get what we want today.

Indeed, once you've invoked the absurd and magical how could -you- know the difference? Thankfully I have no such problem, as I don't believe in fairies to begin with. This has the convenient effect of absolving me from the consideration of whether or not the voices in my head come from the Good Witch of the East or The Wicked Witch of the West. I also don't end up looking like a fucking loon when people ask me similar questions for the pure fun of considering it.

(September 19, 2012 at 8:26 am)Drich Wrote: What birth is without pain?

Why is pain a necessary process of birth? If humans are designed, this is a design flaw.

Also, it's a dodge of the question.

Quote:Why? Because man changes it to suit his own righteousness, and if God were to chase down and meet man's righteousness everytime it change then He would not be worthy of worship. In that senerio Man would be the supreme beings and God the servant.

If God were really the being of perfect morality you seem to believe, he should never need to chase down the morals of such inferior beings as we.

The only god worthy of worship would be one who does not do things people of any morality could ever look down upon as evil.

Quote:Suffering comes to us all like it or not, when our number is called we can suffer with or without God. I choose to suffer for purpose and mean. However if you wish to deprive you and your family of that, then that desision is on you.

I am neither a sadist nor a masochist. I suffer only when no alternative to suffering is available, and only until one is.

Quote:What you and your group fails to understand is that this world and all that happens in it is in our charge in our care. We are responsiable for this realm. Meaning you are in the role of first responder not God. if you see a need and do nothing then all your 'judgement' applies to you. It like if you were to have a child and neglect him because Child services mission statement includes the protection of Children. Child services is not meant to be the primary source of care for all children. Child services holds neglegent parents accountable for their actions.

That is all entirely beside the point. My judgement may totally apply to me, or anybody else. The point is that we are not gods.

What you fail to understand is that God made all this suffering possible and, even though he should have the ability to prevent all suffering, ever, he chooses not to. Why? Because he feels like it. Perhaps he enjoys it. Perhaps he just can't be bothered.

It seems to me that you want God to be perfect, and yet equivocate his bad behavior with the bad behaviors of allegedly inferior beings, as if that makes it okay or something. It's as if you're saying that, since we allow three year olds to throw temper tantrums in public, we should not complain when a thirty year old does it.

Quote:..And you don't see the self righteous hyprocrisy in that? "God do as I say not as I do!"

There is no hypocrisy in demanding higher moral standards from a being who claims to be the source of all morals as compared to a person who is expected to follow them.