(October 4, 2009 at 5:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(October 4, 2009 at 1:48 am)Retorth Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:God is always 'life'. You are seeking life elsewhere. If you are denying 'life' you are also denying God. Geddit? You can remove God from the equation if you like. Either way we're talking about your health here.

I do not believe in god so as far as I am concerned, he is not "life". My life is my own. If he is going to condemn me for living my own decent life, thats just sad lol

Aaaargh!

So you substitute yourself for God. You are doing the same thing as Christians do yourself. You condemn 'yourself' for making unhealthy choices. You are your own 'god'. Are you sad too then? It follows that you must be (read my post).

That's incredibly frustrating that you just dump the whole of the discussion. I can only conclude that you cannot justify anything you believe.

I have thanked you for taking the time to explain to me your views. There will never be an agreement on this, surely you realize?

I am not substituting myself for anything. You see you are saying that going against god is deemed "unhealthy" but I am very much alive and physically healthy, though not as fit as I would like to be but to me going against god is me just minding my own business and living my life my way. If you want to call that calling myself god, thats your description not mine. I just call it living my own life.

You are free to conclude what you will. I see nothing to justify because right from the start, I have been asking questions to try and further understand, not throw a point across.

Well I expect to back up your assertions not simply say I'm wrong and then not justify that. I don't expect you to make completely irrational statements and then repeat them blindly with no justification when challenged. I expect you to concede where you are wrong, and me to concede where I am wrong. I don't expect you to cut and run like this.

You still seriously don't get it. You choose to use your own personal thoughts as guidance rather than an already formulated one. This is the default position. Everybody starts and mostly stays in this position.

You haven't addressed my point above that God is a prescript for healthy life. Whatever you do under your own steam can only hope to reach that perfection in the rarest of cases. Why leave it to chance when you can easily reach perfection?

I'm the sort of person that rarely consults a manual. Maybe I have a gift to understand how things go together or work better than the manual can describe. Some things however demand you read the manual. This is one of those cases.

(October 4, 2009 at 5:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Aaaargh!

So you substitute yourself for God. You are doing the same thing as Christians do yourself. You condemn 'yourself' for making unhealthy choices. You are your own 'god'. Are you sad too then? It follows that you must be (read my post).

That's incredibly frustrating that you just dump the whole of the discussion. I can only conclude that you cannot justify anything you believe.

I thought I should reply to this one.

Quote:So you substitute yourself for God.

Nope, just living for myself without a god.

Quote:You condemn 'yourself' for making unhealthy choices.

I don't think for a moment that living a life without the belief in the existence of a god is at all unhealthy. Unless you care to tell how it is?

Quote: Are you sad too then?

How does lack of belief in a god considered sad? I have never believed in a god, heaven, hell or angels. Never been part of a religion, and yet I'm very happy.

Quote:I can only conclude that you cannot justify anything you believe.

Erm...lack of belief. Also atheists don't need to give a reason to not believe. You can just reject the god claim and go on about your life. Anyway, we all start off in life as non-believers. You have to be told about god from others and then it's down to you to believe it or not.

(October 4, 2009 at 7:03 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Well I expect to back up your assertions not simply say I'm wrong and then not justify that. I don't expect you to make completely irrational statements and then repeat them blindly with no justification when challenged. I expect you to concede where you are wrong, and me to concede where I am wrong. I don't expect you to cut and run like this.

I do not recall every saying that you are wrong. You shared your views and I shared mine. There is no right or wrong. I am not cutting and running. I feel that this is a dead-end because we will not reach an agreement. We each have different views. You just keep attacking me for no reason. :S

fr0d0 Wrote:You still seriously don't get it. You choose to use your own personal thoughts as guidance rather than an already formulated one. This is the default position. Everybody starts and mostly stays in this position.

You are viewing this discussion in your personal thoughts and I view it in mine. Hence we will never reach an agreement. However, remember this, God cannot be proven nor disproven.

I will gladly state that you are not wrong. Neither am I. There is no right or wrong.

fr0d0 Wrote:You haven't addressed my point above that God is a prescript for healthy life. Whatever you do under your own steam can only hope to reach that perfection in the rarest of cases. Why leave it to chance when you can easily reach perfection?

I answered you already:

Retorth Wrote:You see you are saying that going against god is deemed "unhealthy" but I am very much alive and physically healthy, though not as fit as I would like to be Tongue but to me going against god is me just minding my own business and living my life my way.

I did cut out the next sentence from that paragraph of my quote because it isn't exactly relevant to your question but the rest above very much so is.

fr0d0 Wrote:I'm the sort of person that rarely consults a manual. Maybe I have a gift to understand how things go together or work better than the manual can describe. Some things however demand you read the manual. This is one of those cases.

What manual are you referring to?

(October 4, 2009 at 7:14 am)Retorth Wrote:

(October 4, 2009 at 7:03 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Well I expect to back up your assertions not simply say I'm wrong and then not justify that. I don't expect you to make completely irrational statements and then repeat them blindly with no justification when challenged. I expect you to concede where you are wrong, and me to concede where I am wrong. I don't expect you to cut and run like this.

I do not recall every saying that you are wrong. You shared your views and I shared mine. There is no right or wrong. I am not cutting and running. I feel that this is a dead-end because we will not reach an agreement. We each have different views. You just keep attacking me for no reason. :S

You haven't stated an argument. All you've done is make unsupported assertions. Show me where God is "indecisive". Show me how you do not have free will. ...You have asserted these seemingly completely irrational assertions yet no where justify them, despite repeated request to do so.

(October 4, 2009 at 7:14 am)Retorth Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:You still seriously don't get it. You choose to use your own personal thoughts as guidance rather than an already formulated one. This is the default position. Everybody starts and mostly stays in this position.

You are viewing this discussion in your personal thoughts and I view it in mine. Hence we will never reach an agreement. However, remember this, God cannot be proven nor disproven.

I will gladly state that you are not wrong. Neither am I. There is no right or wrong.

Well the idea of a discussion is we try to explain our thoughts and understand someone else's. You say that you can state that I am not wrong. I can't state the same about your idea because you won't explain it. This is my frustration.

(October 4, 2009 at 7:14 am)Retorth Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:You haven't addressed my point above that God is a prescript for healthy life. Whatever you do under your own steam can only hope to reach that perfection in the rarest of cases. Why leave it to chance when you can easily reach perfection?

I answered you already:

Retorth Wrote:You see you are saying that going against god is deemed "unhealthy" but I am very much alive and physically healthy, though not as fit as I would like to be but to me going against god is me just minding my own business and living my life my way.

I did cut out the next sentence from that paragraph of my quote because it isn't exactly relevant to your question but the rest above very much so is.

So therefore you understand God and you understand how we have free will and you also understand how God isn't indecisive. You retract your statements?

(October 4, 2009 at 7:14 am)Retorth Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:I'm the sort of person that rarely consults a manual. Maybe I have a gift to understand how things go together or work better than the manual can describe. Some things however demand you read the manual. This is one of those cases.

What manual are you referring to?

The bible

(October 4, 2009 at 7:28 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(October 4, 2009 at 7:14 am)Retorth Wrote:

(October 4, 2009 at 7:03 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Well I expect to back up your assertions not simply say I'm wrong and then not justify that. I don't expect you to make completely irrational statements and then repeat them blindly with no justification when challenged. I expect you to concede where you are wrong, and me to concede where I am wrong. I don't expect you to cut and run like this.

I do not recall every saying that you are wrong. You shared your views and I shared mine. There is no right or wrong. I am not cutting and running. I feel that this is a dead-end because we will not reach an agreement. We each have different views. You just keep attacking me for no reason. :S

You haven't stated an argument. All you've done is make unsupported assertions. Show me where God is "indecisive". Show me how you do not have free will. ...You have asserted these seemingly completely irrational assertions yet no where justify them, despite repeated request to do so.

You say we exchange ideas and try to understand but you get so worked up and keep calling me irrational. I highly doubt mutual understanding will ever succeed. Ironically, between the two of us, I'm not the one getting all angry and upset. Sure it is frustrating that I can't get you to understand what I am saying but that is no cause for me to be upset.

As I said before, your views on this entire matter are christian-based or religion-based, whichever you prefer to call it. My views are of my own and nothing/nobody else. When you tell me god does give you free will but condemns you to hell for not believing in him anyway, I call that indecisive. You can what I said "irrational" or any other word that assists in defending what you believe, but this is my own point of view.

fr0d0 Wrote:

(October 4, 2009 at 7:14 am)Retorth Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:You still seriously don't get it. You choose to use your own personal thoughts as guidance rather than an already formulated one. This is the default position. Everybody starts and mostly stays in this position.

You are viewing this discussion in your personal thoughts and I view it in mine. Hence we will never reach an agreement. However, remember this, God cannot be proven nor disproven.

I will gladly state that you are not wrong. Neither am I. There is no right or wrong.

Well the idea of a discussion is we try to explain our thoughts and understand someone else's. You say that you can state that I am not wrong. I can't state the same about your idea because you won't explain it. This is my frustration.

(October 4, 2009 at 7:14 am)Retorth Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:You haven't addressed my point above that God is a prescript for healthy life. Whatever you do under your own steam can only hope to reach that perfection in the rarest of cases. Why leave it to chance when you can easily reach perfection?

I answered you already:

Retorth Wrote:You see you are saying that going against god is deemed "unhealthy" but I am very much alive and physically healthy, though not as fit as I would like to be but to me going against god is me just minding my own business and living my life my way.

I did cut out the next sentence from that paragraph of my quote because it isn't exactly relevant to your question but the rest above very much so is.

So therefore you understand God and you understand how we have free will and you also understand how God isn't indecisive. You retract your statements?

I understand that you consider what you have said to make sense, even though it does not to me.

I'm not upset. I'm frustrated. You don't seem to want to answer any straight question, yet you declare a position.. like 'atheist'.

"Sure it is frustrating that I can't get you to understand what I am saying but that is no cause for me to be upset. "

Try explaining yourself.

I'm giving you my personal take. Personal to me. My ideas. Personal understanding is crucial.

Retorth Wrote:When you tell me god does give you free will but condemns you to hell for not believing in him anyway, I call that indecisive. You can what I said "irrational" or any other word that assists in defending what you believe, but this is my own point of view.

HOW is it indecisive? I've explained my logic and you haven't supported yours. Please defend you're logic!

Retorth Wrote:I understand that you consider what you have said to make sense, even though it does not to me.

Are you incapable of showing me how then? What is the point of your assertion that I am wrong if you refuse to say why? Why not spare me the concern? Why say anything in the first place?

I already explained that if god gave us freewill, we should be allowed to decide for ourselves what we want, what we want to believe, how we want to lead our lives. That is the concept of freewill, is it not?

"made or done freely or of one's own accord; voluntary"

We should be free to choose, but this supposed god condemns us for not believing in him. This is why I say he is indecisive.

---

It's like you saying to me:

I have a dragon in my garage that breathes fire.

And I say:

I would say it is not impossible to have a large reptile in your garage but I doubt it breathes fire.

And now you tell me to prove my "assertion". Hilarious.

This discussion reminds me of the discussions bishops once had as to how many angels could there be on a pin head.
I took this photo a time ago which shows there can be two with a third trying hard for a look in.

[/img]
Albert.

Interesting picture. The zoom in is quite impressive. lol