(January 8, 2013 at 4:37 pm)Kayenneh Wrote: Riiiiiight.. I live in a country with some of the highest taxes (actually, they increased the VAT this year) in the world and I don't mind that poorer people 'leech' off of my paycheck. I'm poor, but I live a good life and there's always someone who needs help more than me. Are you really so selfish that you just want to live well and can feel content with yourself when others around you suffer?

No, I want to live in a world where people don't steal my money. You kind of flipped the switch there, I'd rather not see poor people or those suffering, I am doing infinitely more to help poor people by increasing employment and product development. I would hire more people if the government got out of my way.

Corporations are not capable of providing basic social needs such as health care.

(January 8, 2013 at 4:50 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: Corporations are not capable of providing basic social needs such as health care.

Well, they're not supposed to. A job is meant to provide you payment for the work, nothing else.

So why do you opose social wellfarenetworks financed through taxmoney?


Need a bit of thinky thinky?

(January 8, 2013 at 3:50 pm)BGChuckLee Wrote: Socialism is using violence to solve social problems under the name of 'the will of people'.

You can have full socialism, as in USSR, North Korea, Cuba, etc. Then you have partial socialism like EU.

So let me see if I understand you...

Socialism is anything other than 19th century laizet-faire Gilded Age style capitalism. Anything else is just a question of "degree of socialism".

Do I understand you correctly?

(January 8, 2013 at 4:54 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: So why do you opose social wellfarenetworks financed through taxmoney?


Need a bit of thinky thinky?

Because you shouldn't get healthcare from corporations or the state- you should pay for it yourself.

(January 8, 2013 at 4:45 pm)BGChuckLee Wrote: I am doing infinitely more to help poor people by increasing employment and product development. I would hire more people if the government got out of my way.

As an employer, I don't hire people to help them. I hire people because I need work done. I need work done when I need to produce more product. I need to produce more product because there's demand. There's demand when there's a vibrant, economically healthy working class.

It's not the regulation that kills business. It's not the taxes. It's the lack of demand from squeezing off the middle and working class by shipping their jobs overseas and cutting vital social services.

(January 8, 2013 at 4:58 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(January 8, 2013 at 4:45 pm)BGChuckLee Wrote: I am doing infinitely more to help poor people by increasing employment and product development. I would hire more people if the government got out of my way.

As an employer, I don't hire people to help them. I hire people because I need work done. I need work done when I need to produce more product. I need to produce more product because there's demand. There's demand when there's a vibrant, economically healthy working class.

It's not the regulation that kills business. It's not the taxes. It's the lack of demand from squeezing off the middle and working class by shipping their jobs overseas and cutting vital social services.

Well, you claim to be an employer- why do you think menial jobs are outsourced in the first place?

(January 8, 2013 at 4:51 pm)BGChuckLee Wrote: Well, they're not supposed to. A job is meant to provide you payment for the work, nothing else.

Though I see your point about giving workplaces to the people, I beg to differ. All corporations is by Finnish law supposed to provide health care, since healthy, happy citizens can do more for their society than sick ones. And come to that, there are people who aren't able to to work, and not necessarily by their own choice, and should they be shunned? I think not. To be able to work (and that requires of course a work place) is vital, but if you have no social net to catch you if you fall, it's too abrupt. To feel like you have your society at your back, to feel like your neighbors will catch you in case you fail, can make all the difference.

(January 8, 2013 at 4:45 pm)BGChuckLee Wrote:

(January 8, 2013 at 4:37 pm)Kayenneh Wrote: Riiiiiight.. I live in a country with some of the highest taxes (actually, they increased the VAT this year) in the world and I don't mind that poorer people 'leech' off of my paycheck. I'm poor, but I live a good life and there's always someone who needs help more than me. Are you really so selfish that you just want to live well and can feel content with yourself when others around you suffer?

No, I want to live in a world where people don't steal my money. You kind of flipped the switch there, I'd rather not see poor people or those suffering, I am doing infinitely more to help poor people by increasing employment and product development. I would hire more people if the government got out of my way.

Stop lying. YOU are absolutely fine funding the tax breaks fore corporate welfare WE pay for. So it isn't a matter of government getting out of the way. It is a matter of "when I get what I want, it is right. But if others get what they want, then it is wrong".

Tell me how 7.25 an hour is helping anyone and creating more and more low paying jobs helping anyone? Tell me how our exploding pay gap over the past 30 years is helping?

Now since you say you are a "capitalist"(which is not a form of government, but that is a different thread. But since you say you are for the "free market" would the word of a billionaire sink in? Like Warren Buffet or Nick Hanour.

Buffet thinks the rich at his level are full of shit about the tax rate, and he says he doesn't need the breaks he gets. AND BILLIONAIRE Nick Hanour says the "job creators" are because of demand. Any business owner will tell you that they WILL NOT hire one more person until DEMAND forces them to. Since the middle class and working poor are the bulk of that demand, WE, not the uber rich, are the job creators.

Now, when you look at what created the middle class in the first place, go look at the tax rate during WW2 and the 40 years after until Regan. That high tax rate and investment built our highways and electric grids.