(February 14, 2013 at 3:45 am)pop_punks_not_dead Wrote: What about wearing mixed fabrics, owning a slave from a different country etc, Why only enforce 1 bit of Leviticus

Hell, it's not even enforcing Leviticus really, since that passage is remarkably silent on the subject of gay marriage, yet very vocal on whether they should be allowed to live at all.

Now, Drich there, he believes the entire old testament doesn't apply to him, that's his special version of cherry picking. Interestingly though he's also contorted his mental processes enough that he can still think of homosexuality as being a sin despite there being little mention of it in the new.

And yet he spent a lot of time recently calling me a bigot...

(February 14, 2013 at 12:40 am)Drich Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 12:34 am)Ryantology Wrote: As as read it, Jesus made it perfectly clear, in no uncertain terms, that all were expected to hold to the old laws, but you choose to interpret this differently, so that you can comfort yourself into thinking that you'll go to heaven even though you're not killing people as God instructed.

what are you talking about?

Matthew 5:17

(February 14, 2013 at 3:45 am)pop_punks_not_dead Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 12:34 am)Ryantology Wrote: As as read it, Jesus made it perfectly clear, in no uncertain terms, that all were expected to hold to the old laws, but you choose to interpret this differently, so that you can comfort yourself into thinking that you'll go to heaven even though you're not killing people as God instructed.

What about wearing mixed fabrics, owning a slave from a different country etc, Why only enforce 1 bit of Leviticus

Again, my arguement has nothing to do with the Old testament.

I said if you wipe away all of the 'thou shall not be Gays" in the bible you still do not have a santified context in which homosexual activity is premitted. For all homosexual activity is sex based, and we have commands direct from Christ that only allow Sex in a santified marriage. Meaning it is still a sin to be activly gay.

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(February 14, 2013 at 4:54 am)Esquilax Wrote: Now, Drich there, he believes the entire old testament doesn't apply to him,

Not true. all of the OT applies. If it didn't my salvation from the law would be invalid.

If you do not understand what that means ask a question do not assume.

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(February 14, 2013 at 4:54 am)Ryantology Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 12:40 am)Drich Wrote: what are you talking about?

Matthew 5:17

http://atheistforums.org/thread-16745.html
Post number 1

(February 14, 2013 at 11:16 am)Drich Wrote: I said if you wipe away all of the 'thou shall not be Gays" in the bible you still do not have a santified context in which homosexual activity is premitted. For all homosexual activity is sex based, and we have commands direct from Christ that only allow Sex in a santified marriage. Meaning it is still a sin to be activly gay.

And yet you call me a bigot. Fascinating.

Quote:Not true. all of the OT applies. If it didn't my salvation from the law would be invalid.

If you do not understand what that means ask a question do not assume.

Well, explain it then. My understanding is that you believe the old testament is literally true, but that the laws and exhortations therein don't apply to you, that they're instructions to some other group of people. Is that right?

There are a lot of gay accepting churches out there and a lot of gay Christians. In fact, I have several of them on my facebook friends list.

With Catholicism, it's a little trickier. The layout of the Catholic church is that they take all their orders from the Pope. So, while the Baptists, for example, split into the First Baptists and the Southern Baptists, the Catholics all have to have the same belief pattern as the Pope. And if the Pope says homosexuality is a sin, good little Catholics don't really have a choice on the matter; they HAVE to think it's a sin, or else they're disagreeing with the supposedly infaliable Pope.

I do know a few queer Catholics but, honestly, I don't see how they rectify their queerness and their religion.

(February 15, 2013 at 12:09 am)Esquilax Wrote: And yet you call me a bigot. Fascinating.

What does that have to do with the answer I gave?

Quote:Not true. all of the OT applies. If it didn't my salvation from the law would be invalid.

If you do not understand what that means ask a question do not assume.

Well, explain it then. My understanding is that you believe the old testament is literally true, but that the laws and exhortations therein don't apply to you, that they're instructions to some other group of people. Is that right?
[/quote]
Again they very much all apply IF my righteousness was based off of the law. As it is (for all bible believing Christians) our 'righteousness' is based off of grace, apart from the law. Where the Christian faith is stilled tied to the ot law, is that the atonement that provides the grace we all share, is an orginal caveat that the OT law allows for.

In other words, the law sets a nearly impossible standard, then Christ comes along raises that standard to include sin to cover your very thoughts, so no one can claim righteousness through the law. Fortunately in that law we have a way to atone for the sin/violations we commit. In the OT the law did this through the blood sacrifice of animals. In the NT Christ was that sacrifice that nullified sins. Thus separating righteousness and the law. In the Old Testament righteousness could only be found through trying to up hold the law, and what ever sins you committed we're covered by the blood of animals. In the New Testament Christ makes the ultimate sacerfice that takes the way the sins of the whole world. Freeing us for having to strictly live by the law given to Moses.

If we love God with all of our being and accept the sacerfice Christ made on the cross, and forgive others as Christ forgives us, our sins will be forgiven making us righteous and blameless before God.

(February 15, 2013 at 11:34 am)Drich Wrote: What does that have to do with the answer I gave?

Just goes to show that your hatred of bigotry only extends to the people who disagree with you. You're perfectly willing to indulge in it when it's your pet imaginary friend at fault; in fact it seems like you're also trying to conceal its source: "Take all that stuff about killing gays out of the bible, that doesn't matter. It's still a sin, though."

Classy.

Bigotry is still bigotry, whether one is hiding it behind the bible or not.

Drich Wrote:In other words, the law sets a nearly impossible standard, then Christ comes along raises that standard to include sin to cover your very thoughts, so no one can claim righteousness through the law. Fortunately in that law we have a way to atone for the sin/violations we commit. In the OT the law did this through the blood sacrifice of animals. In the NT Christ was that sacrifice that nullified sins. Thus separating righteousness and the law. In the Old Testament righteousness could only be found through trying to up hold the law, and what ever sins you committed we're covered by the blood of animals. In the New Testament Christ makes the ultimate sacerfice that takes the way the sins of the whole world. Freeing us for having to strictly live by the law given to Moses.

I don't understand why you think Christ's sacrifice means that you don't have to live strictly by the law. Matthew 5:19 very clearly says otherwise:

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Perhaps you can fail to follow those laws and still get to heaven, but it is painfully clear that those who follow those old laws closest to the letter get the choicest reservations in Heaven. Therefore, you are expected to do your very best to follow those psychotic old laws, and the judgement you receive will take into account how weill you adhered to them. So, those Christians who are not stoning gays to death or killing disobedient children or adulterers will have almost as much to answer for as we apostates and heathens.

(February 15, 2013 at 11:34 am)Drich Wrote: Again they very much all apply IF my righteousness was based off of the law. As it is (for all bible believing Christians) our 'righteousness' is based off of grace, apart from the law. Where the Christian faith is stilled tied to the ot law, is that the atonement that provides the grace we all share, is an orginal caveat that the OT law allows for.

In other words, the law sets a nearly impossible standard, then Christ comes along raises that standard to include sin to cover your very thoughts, so no one can claim righteousness through the law. Fortunately in that law we have a way to atone for the sin/violations we commit. In the OT the law did this through the blood sacrifice of animals. In the NT Christ was that sacrifice that nullified sins. Thus separating righteousness and the law. In the Old Testament righteousness could only be found through trying to up hold the law, and what ever sins you committed we're covered by the blood of animals. In the New Testament Christ makes the ultimate sacerfice that takes the way the sins of the whole world. Freeing us for having to strictly live by the law given to Moses.

If we love God with all of our being and accept the sacerfice Christ made on the cross, and forgive others as Christ forgives us, our sins will be forgiven making us righteous and blameless before God.

Well, this actually raises an interesting question I hadn't thought of until now: you're not required to follow the ot laws to get into heaven, I get that. But are the laws of the old testament still holy? Perhaps they aren't instructions to you specifically, but at one time they were things one did to get into god's good books, right? Has that changed? Because logically, doing those things now, when you still have grace, should only impress your lord more, right?