(March 12, 2013 at 10:28 am)catfish Wrote: Seriously though, have I not been clear?
Is "zygote/fetus = human (individual)" ambiguous in some way that I'm not aware of? What am I missing here?

Well, apparently so, since it's unclear to you that just because you declare something to be so, doesn't make it so.

You can demand that we take your definition at face value all you want, but that doesn't make you right, it just makes you arrogant. You haven't provided any evidence for your position beyond repeated by fiat commands that we use your definition of what's human and a single vague diagram.

How is this even debate?

(March 12, 2013 at 10:05 am)catfish Wrote: zygote/fetus = human (individual)

Wrong.

Well, if he holds that having a cell is part of a religious argument, and if he holds that a zygote, which is the initial cell formed when two gamete cells are joined, then it goes into a loop.

Meaning, he holds that a single cell is a human, and that is his religious argument.

I'm glad we cleared that up.

So many words, always the same things...
zigote/embryo, whatever it is, it is a human parasite of it's host (aka, mother).
The parasite has human DNA, different from the host/mother.

Until a given number of weeks of gestation (~20), without the host, the parasite dies.
Until some 30 weeks, it's not guaranteed to survive out of the host.

Abortion is a natural self-protective instinct that mothers have when the situation shows no promise of available resources for the adult and the young. The young are expended, in favor of the adult which can fend off the dire situation and breed some other time.
In humans, this instinct also exists, however the reasoning for aborting isn't always about scarcity of resources...

I'm not saying it's right or wrong...
I'm saying, some people have the need to do it, for whatever reason.
Some reasons might be stupid, others are more than reasonable... I lean to think that most women who have chosen to do it throughout history did have reasonable arguments for it.
Whatever reason, I think governments shouldn't forbid it. They may forbid it after a given number of weeks of gestation, say 15 or 20, for that would be the "age" at which it could survive in a non-parasitic state.
Before that stage, the woman should the allowed, or better, shouldn't be prosecuted for terminating her pregnancy.

The discussion of whether the zygote/embryo is human or not is, in my view, pointless. It's an attempt at rationalizing the thing, but, as cafish is showing, leads only to a discussion where each side becomes ever more polarized and eventually one just gives up arguing.
A fetus is a fetus, a proto-human, a human-to-be, a human-parasite.

Quote:Dr. House: Don't worry. Many women learn to embrace this parasite. They name it, dress it up in tiny clothes, arrange playdates with other parasites...

Well poca, untill all those anti abortion people take responsability for the child after he/she is born, they don't have much to say don't they? And we can find this here. The difference is that women don't have to resort to illegal abortions so much (10 weeks... yeahhh).

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ETA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM

I fully accept a fetus is a potential person. I just don't understand how the mother, who has to carry and nurture said fetus in her body for at least 24 weeks to produce a viable, self-sustaining human being (and I'm being generous here, as babies born at 24 weeks have serious medical issues and need around the clock intensive medical care, hell, babies born at 35 weeks can have very serious problems), how can that woman's voice simply not matter or be discounted out of hand?

12 weeks in arkansas. Kansas is making it's own plans. Onward Christian Soldiers!

And that's counted from the last menstrual period, so knock off 2 weeks for gestational age of the fetus.

(March 12, 2013 at 11:50 am)pocaracas Wrote: The discussion of whether the zygote/embryo is human or not is, in my view, pointless. It's an attempt at rationalizing the thing, but, as cafish is showing, leads only to a discussion where each side becomes ever more polarized and eventually one just gives up arguing.

Not quite... It's an attempt at rationalizing the killing of the thing.
Perhaps you'd like to explore the definition of parasite? At what point does a human-parasite stop being a parasite?

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(March 12, 2013 at 11:09 am)EGross Wrote: Well, if he holds that having a cell is part of a religious argument, and if he holds that a zygote, which is the initial cell formed when two gamete cells are joined, then it goes into a loop.

Meaning, he holds that a single cell is a human, and that is his religious argument.

I'm glad we cleared that up.

Holy fuck people. It was sarcasm directed at you for your numerous assertitions that abortion was a religious argument.
.

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(March 12, 2013 at 10:53 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(March 12, 2013 at 10:28 am)catfish Wrote: Seriously though, have I not been clear?
Is "zygote/fetus = human (individual)" ambiguous in some way that I'm not aware of? What am I missing here?

Well, apparently so, since it's unclear to you that just because you declare something to be so, doesn't make it so.

You can demand that we take your definition at face value all you want, but that doesn't make you right, it just makes you arrogant. You haven't provided any evidence for your position beyond repeated by fiat commands that we use your definition of what's human and a single vague diagram.

How is this even debate?

I'm sorry, I forgot to ask your opinion too.
Is a human zygote/fetus a human, or some other species?
.

(March 12, 2013 at 7:07 pm)catfish Wrote:

(March 12, 2013 at 11:50 am)pocaracas Wrote: The discussion of whether the zygote/embryo is human or not is, in my view, pointless. It's an attempt at rationalizing the thing, but, as cafish is showing, leads only to a discussion where each side becomes ever more polarized and eventually one just gives up arguing.

Not quite... It's an attempt at rationalizing the killing of the thing.
Perhaps you'd like to explore the definition of parasite? At what point does a human-parasite stop being a parasite?

Isn't that evident?
When it can function by it self, without the need for a host.