(November 17, 2009 at 6:00 pm)theVOID Wrote: What makes you think being a 'non thinker' is a characteristic worthy of anything more than ridicule and contempt? These idiots who don't think and question are the ones who hold society back, regardless of religious/philosophical position,

Quoted For Truth

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(November 17, 2009 at 6:00 pm)chatpilot Wrote: fr0d0 wrote: You're not talking of the Christan God here.

What part do you disagree with his existence as a spiritual or physical entity or his being revealed to mankind through so called prophets and ancient texts written long ago? Or does your god only exist outside of time and space in some transcendental realm?

That he 'exists' as a 'physical entity',That's not Christianity chatty.
"faith is not a valid nor reliable way to ascertain that god exist" - it's the only way

(November 17, 2009 at 6:00 pm)chatpilot Wrote: fr0d0 wrote: There is no 'gamble'. Belief in God results in life now.

So you don't believe that the end result of your faith in god now would be rewarded with eternal life and bliss later?

The important thing, and the point, is that it gives you life now. The eternal bit just explains the nature of the soul. this is strict mainstream Christianity.

(November 17, 2009 at 6:00 pm)chatpilot Wrote: fr0d0 wrote: Quite the contrary. Faith is enough to confound the non thinker.

Faith is enough for the thinker to see that Christianity is no different than all of the other myths before it. On the contrary if anyone here is a non thinker it is the believer because faith requires that you just accept it without thinking. The thinking has already been done for you god just is and that is all you need to know.

That you can't get your head around faith suggests your own limitations. Logically it makes sense.. you can't grasp that logic yet criticise those that do. You make up this bullshit to justify your arguments when it's all guff you spout.

Not that I can't get my head around faith fr0d0 you keep forgetting I was a believer myself. It's that I have come to see faith for what it really is which is believing in something on somebody elses word thousands of years removed from our time.

You did not answer my question about believing in an afterlife of bliss in return for your faith now. Saying that "The eternal bit just explains the nature of the soul" does not answer that question adequately it just tells me that you believe that the soul is eternal. I want to know if you personally believe in eternal bliss after this life as a result of your faith.

Besides fr0d0 you keep speaking of the bible as if its authors sat around thinking about all these great theological questions that our modern scholars ponder. I am pretty sure that their interpretation of the scriptures (O.T. before Christ) were literal and continued to be so during the early years of the N.T.

(November 17, 2009 at 12:38 pm)chatpilot Wrote: rjh4 being a real Christian in my view is not about simply stating that you believe and accept Jesus as your lord and savior, it requires some changes in the way you live and in how you think.

While some of this could be debated, I agree that being a real Christian should involve changes in the way one lives and how one thinks.

(November 17, 2009 at 12:38 pm)chatpilot Wrote: It's easy for anyone to profess Christianity but it is a whole different matter trying to live according to the scriptures. Everything that is natural to our species is a sin: fornication, lying, lusting (women or others good fortune or property), idolatry which in my view most catholics are guilty of.

I agree.

(November 17, 2009 at 12:38 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Anyone who tells me that he or she has never told a lie in their entire lives I would dismiss outright.

Me too.

(November 17, 2009 at 12:38 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Premarital sex is something that is common place here in the U.S. Men lust after women and vice versa on a daily basis. With the diversity of cultures residing in the world idolatry is the norm for most people. Envy is something that happens all the time on a small or large scale.

Again, I agree.

(November 17, 2009 at 12:38 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Trying to live a life according to gods rules is impossible

Trying is not impossible but certainly actually living a live according to God's rules is impossible for us...even according to Christianity. That is why we need Jesus and to rely on God for help in living according to His rules.

(November 17, 2009 at 12:38 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Someone who tells me they are Christians and live life just like the rest of us eating, drinking, and being merry with the certainty that tomorrow we die is not a Christian in my opinion.

I certainly understand you position here.

(November 17, 2009 at 12:38 pm)chatpilot Wrote: A Christians ultimate goal is to be Christ like in every aspect of his or her life and if that person is not willing to make those sacrifices then he is not a Christian. It's ironic how Jesus sacrificed his life for us according to the scriptures but at the same time serving Christ requires that you do the same.

Again, while some of this could be debated, I agree that being a real Christian should involve these things.

(November 17, 2009 at 12:38 pm)chatpilot Wrote: In closing to answer your question in one sentence you lose your freedom to enjoy this life to the fullest doing what makes you happy.

This seems somewhat contradictory to your earlier statement: "It's true that the aforementioned acts are not good but my argument is that they are natural." It seems like you are saying that doing things that are not good but are natural is what makes one happy. If you know those things are not good, why would they make one happy, even if they are natural? If you agree that those things you mentioned are not good, then wouldn't going against your nature and giving those things up (with God's help) actually make your life better, thus no real loss. I know for me, the more I rely upon God to give up those natural affections, the more peace I have in life. Totally worth it to me and no real loss is involved.

Quote:is that it gives you life now.

I'm alive now and I don't believe in any silly gods. Does not seem to be a requirement.

(November 17, 2009 at 7:00 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Not that I can't get my head around faith fr0d0 you keep forgetting I was a believer myself. It's that I have come to see faith for what it really is which is believing in something on somebody elses word thousands of years removed from our time.

I'm always mindful of the fact chatty. And I know what it's like to leave the faith, and how little your understanding now will relate to when you were immersed in it. You have your own understanding now of what religion is, you have changed.

(November 17, 2009 at 7:00 pm)chatpilot Wrote: You did not answer my question about believing in an afterlife of bliss in return for your faith now. Saying that "The eternal bit just explains the nature of the soul" does not answer that question adequately it just tells me that you believe that the soul is eternal. I want to know if you personally believe in eternal bliss after this life as a result of your faith.

I've said many times on here... I don't really give a stuff about that. Yes it's part of Christianity and ppl, as you do, seem to want to give that an unreasonable amount of credit. I don't think it's relevant only to explain the nature of the soul.

(November 17, 2009 at 7:00 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Besides fr0d0 you keep speaking of the bible as if its authors sat around thinking about all these great theological questions that our modern scholars ponder. I am pretty sure that their interpretation of the scriptures (O.T. before Christ) were literal and continued to be so during the early years of the N.T.

How can you say that when you look at the incredible complexity of say Genesis? It's so intensely perfected. What I think is that those people were intensely motivated in producing that and understood a lot better than the dirge that is christianity in the 2000 years after Christ.

The complexity that is Genesis? What complexity are you referring to fr0d0? Genesis is a compilation of folk tales, myths, and I dare say a mixture of some history. That is it. People putting down in writing ancient oral traditions to the best of their abilities. Many of the events described in Genesis are either non historical or greatly exaggerated narrations of what actually took place.

The whole bible reads of hyperbole... metaphor... and often outright lies.

So true Saerules I totally agree with you.

Well if you look into Genesis chatty you see some extremely complex poetry... with parallel sentence structures, alliteration, and repetition. It'd be impossible to lose in translation because in Hebrew it'd be instantly noticeable. Everything plays out in patterns of 3, 7 and 10: Repetition of words; things arranged in patterns of 7s and 3s. In Vs 1 God is some sort of creator, in vs 2 some sort of spirit and in vs 3 some sort of word. God says let us create man in our image (creator/ spirit/ word). It talks about the naked singularity before the creation, the big bang, and even evolution is consistent.

It's perfection in statements so well honed and it still works perfectly. It's sorta miraculous in itself.

Hmmm using the ancient beliefs of numerology to interpret biblical nonsense interesting. Although I have heard this before I don't believe it either. It's only complex if you like to read into it things that are not there. Trying to interpret scriptures by modern standards is not a good idea since I am pretty sure that the scriptures were not written for a modern audience but rather to preserve ancient beliefs and traditions.