I believe the most compelling theist response is that morality is "written in our hearts" by our creator, and that whether you believe or disbelieve in Him, you still act in accord with what is written in your hearts by Him. Animal morality provides a slight but easily surmountable objection, as He is responsible for what is written in their hearts as well. Now I may personally find the idea preposterous, but it at least has the virtue of being consistent with the data, and therefore would need to be ruled out on other grounds.

(A common theist analogy is that morality is like air. You can deny the existence of air, but you will still require its existence in order to deny its existence. It becomes something of an unfalsifiable hypothesis, which, I believe, would make the overall argument an informal fallacy, but then it's not clear what would falsify or differentiate the naturalistic theory from the supernatural one. [At least at first gander. I'm not an ethicist and so I stumble upon such questions more by accident than by design. I am a rank amateur in the field.])

Consistent with what data? Data about the heart, or about gods writing on it?

(April 3, 2013 at 2:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Consistent with what data? Data about the heart, or about gods writing on it?

Don't be difficult like this when I haven't had my coffee yet.

(April 2, 2013 at 7:43 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote: Morality arose from primitive man due to the fact that every man in the cave/village was needed, and to kill a fellow man over something so trivial would have placed the entire clan in danger due to lowering its numbers.

Non-social species will eat their young and attack each other whereas social species do neither. When did bears live in villages?

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(April 2, 2013 at 8:11 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Bonobo chimps, our closest relatives, have been observed with behavior that sure looks an awful lot like morality, including:

Sharing food with other group members, even when in short supply.
Protection of other group members.
Adoption of babies when mother dies.
Punishment of violent group members, usually ejection from the group.
Sadness when member dies.

And more.

Which god is responsible for Bonobo morality?

The Lawgiver of MST3K was the prophet of the Bonobo god whose name is unknown for trademark reasons.

(April 2, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(April 2, 2013 at 8:11 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Bonobo chimps, our closest relatives, have been observed with behavior that sure looks an awful lot like morality, including:

Sharing food with other group members, even when in short supply.
Protection of other group members.
Adoption of babies when mother dies.
Punishment of violent group members, usually ejection from the group.
Sadness when member dies.

And more.

Which god is responsible for Bonobo morality?

Elephants do the very same thing, so are elephants one of our close relatives also.

Did your elephant god teach elephants morality?

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(April 3, 2013 at 12:18 am)Godschild Wrote: Can't you all see a ribbing, I mean seriously.

Isn't that where you believe women came from?

(April 2, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: Elephants do the very same thing, so are elephants one of our close relatives also.

You realize that only further invalidates your viewpoint, don't you?

apophenia Wrote:I believe the most compelling theist response is that morality is "written in our hearts" by our creator, and that whether you believe or disbelieve in Him, you still act in accord with what is written in your hearts by Him. Animal morality provides a slight but easily surmountable objection, as He is responsible for what is written in their hearts as well. Now I may personally find the idea preposterous, but it at least has the virtue of being consistent with the data, and therefore would need to be ruled out on other grounds.

I think this also further weakens claims for the veracity of individual gods, especially those like Yahweh whose code of morality places belief and supplication to Yahweh far above any and all other moral considerations (the first four Commandments are about how to properly submit to God's will). If the Christian God really implanted morality on the hearts of men, where are the innate directives to recognize Yahweh as creator of the universe and saver of lost souls? Why is it that this particular (and, for Christians, absolutely vital) moral set only existed in one remote general area full of backwards hicks for most of what they believe to be human history?

(April 3, 2013 at 1:43 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Secular mortality pales in comparison to the standard of absolute morality championed by Christianity. It's not the same beast at all, but a taster of the real thing. I would call secular morality savage. There is no justification for forgiveness, for example. Listen to defenders of our legal system and they cite Christ as the standard for this. Society demands retribution and an eye for an eye.

Morality deals with behavior. Punishment, with or without meaningless forgiveness, is in christian morality. If everything is the same but there is some feel-good forgiveness benefiting only the forgiver it has nothing to do with the morality of the behavior itself.

This must be one of reasons philosopher ridiculed christian navel lint eaters.

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(April 3, 2013 at 8:49 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: ...
I wouldn't get on my high religious horse fr0d0 if I were you. Your morality (xtian standard or lack there of) is the sole perpetrator of the most heinous crimes of immorality to date (quickly being overtaken by your sister religion islam) I wouldn't be proud at all if I were you

The "other" is always excluded from moral consideration while it always includes members of the social group. However the consequences are not always strict. See the recent surveys on who it is OK to drone.

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(April 3, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Joel Wrote: Forgiveness only affects yourself. Morality doesn't hinge on that; only forgiveness.
I could fool someone into believing I have forgiven them and it doesn't affect them: but it will affect me, because I haven't actually forgiven them.

I don't see what point you're trying to make.

EDIT: How can I forgive any more than everyone who has wronged me?

Just before the switch is thrown shout, I forgive you.

Doesn't make and difference at all.

Speaking of Islam, society does not punish if the wronged party forgives. That is a significant difference whereas there is no difference in punishment in Christianity.

Islam is barbaric/ secularly moral.

To you, forgiveness is meaningless. That was my point.

(April 3, 2013 at 2:36 pm)apophenia Wrote:

(April 3, 2013 at 2:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Consistent with what data? Data about the heart, or about gods writing on it?

Don't be difficult like this when I haven't had my coffee yet.

Having someone else's coffee would be immoral.

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(April 4, 2013 at 3:21 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Islam is barbaric/ secularly moral.

To you, forgiveness is meaningless. That was my point.

In Islam forgiveness means something to the person being forgiven. In Christianity it means nothing at all.

(April 2, 2013 at 7:35 pm)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: No human society condones gratuitous murder of and theft from members of that society.

You obviously know nothing about communism or about Islamic States in the middle east. Go and educate yourself, and then come back and try again.