LOL, I don't trust either. Mostly because both have shown themselves to be completely unworthy of trust.

(April 4, 2013 at 2:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: LOL, I don't trust either. Mostly because both have shown themselves to be completely unworthy of trust.

Did God let you down, R?

Can't say that he did, never met the man. You?

Too often I let God down.

Well, if it's any consolation, I wouldn't worry about that Chad. I'm sure he'll understand.

(April 4, 2013 at 2:16 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Of course your motives are political. 'In Government We Trust". I don't believe government is the highest moral authority, so no I will not keep my religion to myself. My religion informs my politics. If you let your politics determine your religion, then your priorities are confused.

Of course they are. I said they were. If they weren't, of course they wouldn't be.

I have found no religion to be a better moral code than what people thousands of years ago could have devised. Thankfully, no one lives quite by those standards anymore.

I let reality determine my religion. That reality is secularism. The reason we can't advance on unambigous moral areas like protecting the planet, helping the sick, and providing equality to all is because half of the masses and the representatives they elect determine their moral code from bronze age barbarism. Not that it's unexpected. Ignorance is always in opposition to progress. I just hope the trend set by the industrial age, the enlightenment, and the information age will continue to beat back bad ideas.

(April 4, 2013 at 3:27 pm)Golbez Wrote: I let reality determine my religion. That reality is secularism.

I also let reality determine my religion. That reality is reality in its fullness.

(April 4, 2013 at 3:27 pm)Golbez Wrote: The reason we can't advance on unambigous moral areas like protecting the planet, helping the sick, and providing equality to all is because half of the masses and the representatives they elect determine their moral code from bronze age barbarism.

Agreed. If they got it from the bible, like our Founding Fathers did, we would be much better off.

(April 4, 2013 at 3:27 pm)Golbez Wrote: Ignorance is always in opposition to progress. I just hope the trend set by the industrial age, the enlightenment, and the information age will continue to beat back bad ideas.

And what makes you think that the industrial revolution and information technology will make us wise? The enlightenment was a good thing for natural science, but I do not see this in opposition to religious faith.

Well, your reality is full alright. The founding fathers were much more rational and intelligent than anything the Bible has to offer, with sole exception to the Golden Rule, which had been around well before the Bible at any rate.

http://youtu.be/70SYwkoH_yc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q37NhrCPNo

It makes us wise because we start shedding idiotic ideas about how to feed people and keep them healthy. We wash our hands with soap and water now. We pasteurize certain foods, and cook others. We better understand how the world works instead of fictional accounts, like what stars are, how gravity operates on different objects, whether everything revolves around the earth, etc. Previously, catholicism offered perhaps temporarily suitable but ultimately foolish explanations for these details. You may still not see this as opposition. I can't help you there. But it most certainly is.

The same is true in today's world, where religion disputes the age of the Earth, resists condom use, discriminates against gays, and lobbies against climate change. I understand the movement against them though. Once these major pillars of religion ultimately fall to advancing societies, there's very little left to prop it up. And who wants to be exposed for dedicating their whole life as a believer?

Though I think the more important question is, who wants to throw in good years after bad?

Oh, if you should happen to watch either of those videos (very well put together, if you're interested in a researched position on the Bible), this is a link that corroborates it a bit:

http://www.project-reason.org/gallery3/image/105/
The 33x44 link underneath the image can be zoomed to look up and verify them. I'll add that link here:
http://www.project-reason.org/bibleContra_big.pdf

So I'm supposed to waste 18 minutes of my life watching derivative videos just because you're too lazy to put things in your own words.

Here here, for once. Now, Golbez, you'll have to appreciate that Chad here probably isn't kosher with alot of what religion has put it's heft behind. His is a relatively new splinter of the larger cult. John Chapman stuff. But take heart, if you drill him long and hard enough you'll still find plenty to poke at.