(April 5, 2013 at 5:18 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(April 5, 2013 at 11:59 am)pocaracas Wrote: Like electro-magnetic waves need aether... oh wait....

Seems like the quantum vacuum has many of the characteristics traditionally associated with ether, but I haven't studied physics in 20 years. Just what I read in the popular literature.

yeah.... virtual particles and the like... photons don't seem to interact with them like water waves, or pressure waves in air.

and look at what you claimed:

Quote:God's sphere of influence is not limited to particular pieces of reality, it pervades all of reality

How would have access to this knowledge about this god entity?

Apophenia,

If you care to respond to my last post to you, I'll respond to your last post.

Quote:Let me introduce you to my little friend....

Wikipedia Wrote:Self-organization is a process where some form of global order or coordination arises out of the local interactions between the components of an initially disordered system. This process is spontaneous: it is not directed or controlled by any agent or subsystem inside or outside of the system; however, the laws followed by the process and its initial conditions may have been chosen or caused by an agent. It is often triggered by random fluctuations that are amplified by positive feedback. The resulting organization is wholly decentralized or distributed over all the components of the system. As such it is typically very robust and able to survive and self-repair substantial damage or perturbations.

Self-organization occurs in a variety of physical, chemical, biological, social and cognitive systems. Common examples are crystallization, the emergence of convection patterns in a liquid heated from below, chemical oscillators, the invisible hand of the market, swarming in groups of animals, and the way neural networks learn to recognize complex patterns.

It's a shame you have so few friends you consider a Wikipedia article to be a friend. I couldn't be more dishonest then you a person who claims to be fair minded and impartial yet only attacks what I write. Let's talk about honesty and being disingenuous. You have stated to me several times you're not an atheist and you claim below if a person isn't an atheist there a theist, I don't believe that's true and I don't think you do either but it is what you say. Since according to you you're not an atheist then you are a theist. Yet you have disagreed with nearly every line of evidence or argument I have made in spite of the fact you evidently agree with my conclusion that we owe our existence to a transcendent creator of great power. After all this is what you wrote ' If they aren't "fellow atheists," then they must be theists' in fact according to you, you found that amusing. Now I am taking you at your word and that you couldn't be so damn stupid that you made this statement but forgot you yourself don't fall into either category. Since you are a theist, but disagree with the evidence I have submitted and it appears you disagree with any evidence in favor of theism, why not tell everyone on this board your reasoning, logic and evidence that leads you to believe in theism? Even if you disagree with my reasons and evidence, maybe I'll agree with yours.

I don't necessarily disagree with the articles you cited about self-organization and self-order. The fact such occurs is due to the laws of nature , the same reason there are planets, solar systems, stars and galaxies. The question is why would mindless forces that don't care if there are planets, stars or galaxies or care if self-organization or self order occur or care if life exists or sentient humans exist wind up in an extremely narrow set of characteristics to allow such to occur. I typically get two rebuttals from atheists (although they have repeatedly stated they don't necessarily believe the rebuttals are true) how much stock should I or anyone put in a rebuttal that the person making it won't commit to whether they believe it or not.

Rebuttal 1. Maybe for some unknown (but naturalistic reason) the universe had to be the way we observe it. In other words according to this theory (which they don't actually believe is true) if a universe exists at all, it must for some reason be in a configuration that allows and even causes sentient human life to exist. Isn't that special that mindless forces that didn't plan, design or intend for us to exist nevertheless are compelled by some unknown law of nature (that also didn't plan or intend the existence of planets, stars, galaxies and sentient life) to produce something unlike itself, life and sentience. No wonder atheists don't actually believe this nonsense.

Rebuttal 2.

Now they do a complete 180 degree reversal on the previous objection they don't believe in and claim that our universe maybe one of an infinitude of universes with differing characteristics and we by that old gospel standby time and chance happen to be in the one that allows our existence. They probably lack belief in this claim also but it is objection worthy as is any potential rebuttal regardless of evidence, something they always demand of others but never require of themselves. But since you evidently share my belief in theism even though you disagree with the evidence I submit I suppose it doesn't really matter in the long run.

---

Quote:I'm just going to say your whole post is one big "god of the gaps" argument, while trying to shift the burden of proof to "naturalism".
And I'm also going to elaborate a bit on what Luke said, about the history of the god of the gaps argument.

No my whole case was built in 5 indisputable facts, no God in the gaps necessary.

Quote:Some hundreds of years ago, people believed that almost everything in the world was the product of some god. The spirit world, where each animal, plant, mountain, cloud, moon, sun has a spirit or is itself a god... only humans are subject to those spirits.

You are aware that theists disabused folks of such notions long before scientists did right?

Quote:So mindless they are predictable

Really?

Quote:As science establishes these "rules of Nature", the god-did-it explanation shrinks in scope. What was once explained by the existence of a god, became explained by simple mindless forces. The god explanation shrank into the gaps in the scientific explanation of the world.

The premise is.

1. A mysterious phenomena exists
2. Scientists examine the phenomena and explain how it works by an appeal to the laws of nature
3. The laws of physics explains how something functions without appealing to the existnece of a Creator.
4. Therefore a Creator doesn't exist

Is that your presmise?

Quote:And those are the gaps you examine here:
- Where/how/why did the universe come into being?
- How did life on Earth come into being?
- How did intelligence evolve?

You're not quoting me because you know I never said that.

I did say
1. The fact the universe exists
2. The fact life exists
3. The fact sentient life exists.

I merely stated the fact of their existence.

(April 5, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: Apophenia,

If you care to respond to my last post to you, I'll respond to your last post.

---

It's a shame you have so few friends you consider a Wikipedia article to be a friend. I couldn't be more dishonest then you a person who claims to be fair minded and impartial yet only attacks what I write. Let's talk about honesty and being disingenuous. You have stated to me several times you're not an atheist and you claim below if a person isn't an atheist there a theist, I don't believe that's true and I don't think you do either but it is what you say. Since according to you you're not an atheist then you are a theist. Yet you have disagreed with nearly every line of evidence or argument I have made in spite of the fact you evidently agree with my conclusion that we owe our existence to a transcendent creator of great power. After all this is what you wrote ' If they aren't "fellow atheists," then they must be theists' in fact according to you, you found that amusing. Now I am taking you at your word and that you couldn't be so damn stupid that you made this statement but forgot you yourself don't fall into either category. Since you are a theist, but disagree with the evidence I have submitted and it appears you disagree with any evidence in favor of theism, why not tell everyone on this board your reasoning, logic and evidence that leads you to believe in theism? Even if you disagree with my reasons and evidence, maybe I'll agree with yours.

My theological views are not relevant except insofar as they refute your claim that only dyed-in-the-wool atheists find your arguments unpersuasive. And seeing that your inquiry seems more strategic than social, I feel fully justified in rejecting your request; it's not my job to help you make your case, and my specific theological views won't help you any.

(April 5, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: I don't necessarily disagree with the articles you cited about self-organization and self-order. The fact such occurs is due to the laws of nature , the same reason there are planets, solar systems, stars and galaxies.

(April 5, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: The question is why would mindless forces that don't care if there are planets, stars or galaxies or care if self-organization or self order occur or care if life exists or sentient humans exist wind up in an extremely narrow set of characteristics to allow such to occur.

Allow what to occur? Life, or the specific sentient life we know about? According to the theory of evolution, while the characteristics of this universe and our earth 'allowed' for the development of complex life forms from simpler ones, nothing in it suggests that our specific sentient life had to evolve. That it did so, while fortuitous for us, tells us nothing special about the conditions themselves, nor whether they are necessary for the development of any sentient life in general. As noted previously, you've picked up the telescope from the wrong end and are inferring that the conditions of the universe are special because we, uniquely, are special; however, this latter claim remains to be demonstrated. Until you demonstrate this to be the case, your claim that the conditions themselves are special has no foundation.

(April 5, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: I typically get two rebuttals from atheists (although they have repeatedly stated they don't necessarily believe the rebuttals are true) how much stock should I or anyone put in a rebuttal that the person making it won't commit to whether they believe it or not.

Rebuttal 1. Maybe for some unknown (but naturalistic reason) the universe had to be the way we observe it. In other words according to this theory (which they don't actually believe is true) if a universe exists at all, it must for some reason be in a configuration that allows and even causes sentient human life to exist. Isn't that special that mindless forces that didn't plan, design or intend for us to exist nevertheless are compelled by some unknown law of nature ... to produce something unlike itself, life and sentience. No wonder atheists don't actually believe this nonsense.

As noted previously, the universe hasn't created anything unlike itself yet, as it has been noted we are made out of the same stuff as the rest of the universe. Given that the first self-replicating molecules necessary to start evolution going likely would not be far removed from basic star stuff, it appears clear that you have a beef with the idea that evolutionary processes can produce intelligent life from non-intelligent life; if so, then I suggest you make an argument against evolution, as abiogenesis is not concerned with the creation of mindful life from mindless life, evolution is. If your argument is solely with abiogenesis, then we have a clear god of the gaps argument.

Moreover, there is nothing about the conditions of this universe which "compelled" the evolution of sentient life — or any life — so your rebuttal is moot.

(April 5, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: Rebuttal 2.

Now they do a complete 180 degree reversal on the previous objection they don't believe in and claim that our universe maybe one of an infinitude of universes with differing characteristics and we by that old gospel standby time and chance happen to be in the one that allows our existence. They probably lack belief in this claim also but it is objection worthy as is any potential rebuttal regardless of evidence, something they always demand of others but never require of themselves. But since you evidently share my belief in theism even though you disagree with the evidence I submit I suppose it doesn't really matter in the long run.

This is remarkable given that the author you are using in support of your arguments, Martin Rees, is actually a proponent of this view. Anyway, as outlined earlier, if you fail to provide reasons for discounting a valid alternative interpretation of the evidence or alternative theory, your argument runs afoul of the law of the excluded middle and renders its conclusions without force. I personally find the multiverse hypothesis, whichever one you prefer, to be an entertaining hypothesis, but lacking empirical support for preferring it over other potential hypotheses, I'm content to wait and see. You don't have that luxury, as a consequence of the structure of your argument.

---

As a side note, as noted multiple times, while the physics is interesting, it's not your biggest problem. That problem is demonstrating that these conditions warrant an inference to design. Having studied the intelligent design arguments in-depth personally, I know that you can't get there from here. You'll need at least a #6 to to add to your facts in evidence, namely a method of differentiating design from non-design, robustly and reliably, from premises 1 through 5. This I predict you will not be able to do. Nor do I really expect you to do so, as it has defeated much better minds than yours.

(April 5, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote:

Quote:I'm just going to say your whole post is one big "god of the gaps" argument, while trying to shift the burden of proof to "naturalism".
And I'm also going to elaborate a bit on what Luke said, about the history of the god of the gaps argument.

No my whole case was built in 5 indisputable facts, no God in the gaps necessary.

5 facts and one conclusion of squeezing a god to explain those facts.

(April 5, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote:

Quote:Some hundreds of years ago, people believed that almost everything in the world was the product of some god. The spirit world, where each animal, plant, mountain, cloud, moon, sun has a spirit or is itself a god... only humans are subject to those spirits.

You are aware that theists disabused folks of such notions long before scientists did right?

That's why I still hear people claiming St. Peter governs the weather.
The names changed... but the belief is the same.

(April 5, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote:

Quote:As science establishes these "rules of Nature", the god-did-it explanation shrinks in scope. What was once explained by the existence of a god, became explained by simple mindless forces. The god explanation shrank into the gaps in the scientific explanation of the world.

The premise is.

1. A mysterious phenomena exists
2. Scientists examine the phenomena and explain how it works by an appeal to the laws of nature
3. The laws of physics explains how something functions without appealing to the existnece of a Creator.
4. Therefore a Creator doesn't exist

Is that your presmise?

no.
Had you read what I wrote, you'd seen that it's more like:
1. a long time ago, people believed god(s) were the explanation for every natural phenomena.
2. As science evolves, natural phenomena became understood and god(s) was(were) removed from these explanations.
3.1 There are still some gaps in scientific knowledge.
3.2 There are still some people claiming the god explanation for those unexplained phenomena.
5. If the god explanation turned out to be invalid for a huge number of other phenomena, why should I uphold that explanation for the remaining unexplained phenomena?

(April 5, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote:

Quote:And those are the gaps you examine here:
- Where/how/why did the universe come into being?
- How did life on Earth come into being?
- How did intelligence evolve?

You're not quoting me because you know I never said that.

I did say
1. The fact the universe exists
2. The fact life exists
3. The fact sentient life exists.

I merely stated the fact of their existence.

Oh, but you stated something else, at the end:

(April 4, 2013 at 7:25 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: The theist claim is that the universe and the attendant laws of nature were not the result of some mindless process that fortuitously got it right but instead was the product of planning and design. Theism offers an explanation that accounts for our existence and the existence of the universe, why sentient life exists and why the conditions and characteristics necessary for such to obtain resulted.

And this deals with the questions I listed.

Well I've read back as far as I am willing and have reached a conclusion.

The OP has not made his case. Many have weighed in to give detailed reasons why so there is no need to go over that ground again. Unless anyone here thinks the OP is likely to write a concession any time soon I can't see any reason to continue following this debacle.

This juror finds that the OP has not made his case, is not likely ever to do so, and will never give up trying. I on the other hand will not stand by and watch this poor horse get beaten any more. There are limits to what one can endure.

I like to bow out of debates when they repeat the same points or reach a standstill of disagreement.

(April 6, 2013 at 7:01 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I like to bow out of debates when they repeat the same points or reach a standstill of disagreement.

Welcome to our world Mystic.


by the way, how is that book coming along?

(April 6, 2013 at 7:06 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: by the way, how is that book coming along?

Working on a friendly introduction. Trying to be as friendly as possible to Muslims and show well intention.

(April 6, 2013 at 7:10 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 6, 2013 at 7:06 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: by the way, how is that book coming along?

Working on a friendly introduction. Trying to be as friendly as possible to Muslims and show well intention.

Showing good intentions is great. I truly wish you well my dear

Although I would assume learning written Arabic will be difficult?

(April 6, 2013 at 7:12 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote:

(April 6, 2013 at 7:10 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Working on a friendly introduction. Trying to be as friendly as possible to Muslims and show well intention.

Showing good intentions is great. I truly wish you well my dear

Although I would assume learning written Arabic will be difficult?

Thanks.

I'm writing it in English. If people want to translate it to Arabic later, I'm game. I am no well enough in Arabic to write a book in Arabic.