(April 19, 2013 at 1:38 am)smax Wrote:

(April 19, 2013 at 12:40 am)Godschild Wrote: No you're wrong, #1 is no more than your opinion, and it's not a good one, you're trying to tell people how they need to live, so I just ignored #1. You can no more prove God does not exist than I can prove dark matter.

Okay, we'll settle this matter once and for all, right here and right now:

You believe God exists and is actively interested in the human struggle.

I don't.

With that, we can now agree to terms that will settle this difference. You claim to have great confidence in your position that god is active and personal. I am equally confident that neither of those contentions are true.

So, I hereby issue an official challenge. If a personal god exists, and he's active and personal, let him prove your position on this matter by providing some kind of supernatural, yet undeniable proof of his existence and purpose to both you, me, and anyone who's reading this challenge. This proof should be something clearly verifiable, and something that all experiencing parties can discuss on this forum without encountering any significant inconsistencies.

Now we get to find out how strongly you really feel about your position. Because I'm all in. How about you? How's that faith holding up right about now?

Jesus said thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, who are you that you believe you can demand something from the God of creation. You want proof of God then don't be so lazy and find it as scripture says possible. I'm not going to fall into this little selfish trap that has been tried here numerous times.

(April 19, 2013 at 1:59 am)Godschild Wrote: Jesus said thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, who are you that you believe you can demand something from the God of creation. You want proof of God then don't be so lazy and find it as scripture says possible. I'm not going to fall into this little selfish trap that has been tried here numerous times.

That excuse doesn't fly:

Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Exodus 3:18-20
“The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to the Lord our God.’ But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.

1 King 18:36-39
36At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

38Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”

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Let's face facts, GC, the reason you will not agree to these terms is because you and I actually believe the same thing about this subject: that is simply that there is no active personal god.

If he was active and personal, I'd be the one on the weak side of this argument, and you'd be confident that god would prove your position.

As it stands, we both know the exact same thing. He won't do anything because he doesn't exist.

And look at that, I didn't even turn into worms!

Acts 12:23

(April 19, 2013 at 12:40 am)Godschild Wrote: God shows up daily, you only need to look.

Prove it.

Quote:I'm not going to fall into this little selfish trap that has been tried here numerous times.

All we have to do is ask and we've won because you claim there is evidence but you are incapable of demonstrating it. If you have it, you can show it. If you can't show it, you don't have it.

(April 19, 2013 at 1:59 am)Godschild Wrote: Jesus said thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, who are you that you believe you can demand something from the God of creation. You want proof of God then don't be so lazy and find it as scripture says possible. I'm not going to fall into this little selfish trap that has been tried here numerous times.

It wouldn't have to be a demand, or a request for a parlor trick. Why couldn't it be a sincere prayer to god to demonstrate himself to all, and thus give many people hope and a path to salvation? Why would god consider that an attempt to tempt him, or a "trap???" Would it truly be selfish of you to ask god to reveal himself and provide a path to heaven for all who would believe?

LOL, "spiritual reasoning"..... sounds like another name for "magical thinking" to me. There's nothing unreasonable or selfish for asking for any of that..however, this silly little myth has already been questioned so often (even while it was being created) that the peddlers had to add a no-peeking clause. That's my opinion.

Daddy why can't I stay up and see santa? - because then you wont get any presents. You just have to believe.

(April 19, 2013 at 2:38 am)smax Wrote:

(April 19, 2013 at 1:59 am)Godschild Wrote:

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Jesus said thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, who are you that you believe you can demand something from the God of creation. You want proof of God then don't be so lazy and find it as scripture says possible. I'm not going to fall into this little selfish trap that has been tried here numerous times.

---

That excuse doesn't fly:

Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Exodus 3:18-20
“The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to the Lord our God.’ But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.

1 King 18:36-39
36At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

38Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”

-----

Let's face facts, GC, the reason you will not agree to these terms is because you and I actually believe the same thing about this subject: that is simply that there is no active personal god.

If he was active and personal, I'd be the one on the weak side of this argument, and you'd be confident that god would prove your position.

As it stands, we both know the exact same thing. He won't do anything because he doesn't exist.

And look at that, I didn't even turn into worms!

Acts 12:23

Persons who know God know He is going to do things by His will, and we know that asking God to do things outside of His will turn out fruitless. God doesn't work the way you are purposing and if you did not know this you do now. You're trying to use scripture in a way that's against God's will, you should be careful about toying with God.

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(April 19, 2013 at 2:41 am)Ryantology Wrote:

(April 19, 2013 at 12:40 am)Godschild Wrote: God shows up daily, you only need to look.

Prove it.

Quote:I'm not going to fall into this little selfish trap that has been tried here numerous times.

All we have to do is ask and we've won because you claim there is evidence but you are incapable of demonstrating it. If you have it, you can show it. If you can't show it, you don't have it.

You're being childish, if you're an adult act like it.

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(April 19, 2013 at 6:28 am)Tonus Wrote:

(April 19, 2013 at 1:59 am)Godschild Wrote: Jesus said thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, who are you that you believe you can demand something from the God of creation. You want proof of God then don't be so lazy and find it as scripture says possible. I'm not going to fall into this little selfish trap that has been tried here numerous times.

It wouldn't have to be a demand, or a request for a parlor trick. Why couldn't it be a sincere prayer to god to demonstrate himself to all, and thus give many people hope and a path to salvation? Why would god consider that an attempt to tempt him, or a "trap???" Would it truly be selfish of you to ask god to reveal himself and provide a path to heaven for all who would believe?

Scripture tells us this is against the will of God, knowing this I would not be able to pray for that, and since you do not believe you most certainly can not. God's laid out a plan from before time and he's not changing things up for your petty and selfish ways.

-says the man telling us all about a pixie.

(April 19, 2013 at 8:15 am)Godschild Wrote: Persons who know God know He is going to do things by His will, and we know that asking God to do things outside of His will turn out fruitless. God doesn't work the way you are purposing and if you did not know this you do now. You're trying to use scripture in a way that's against God's will, you should be careful about toying with God.

Congratulations, GC, you are now an Atheist. In fact, you may have already been one long before now, but now you are actually aware of the fact.

I suspect you will continue claiming that you are a man of faith, as it takes time to try and make sense of what your life has been about the past who knows how many years. But we both know that, deep down, you have no faith. It was put to the test, and you had none to offer.

But don't feel bad about that. This development and realization is a good thing. Reality is a good thing.

Again, welcome aboard! I look forward to you developing the guts to admit your true beliefs.

(April 19, 2013 at 8:15 am)Godschild Wrote: Persons who know God know He is going to do things by His will, and we know that asking God to do things outside of His will turn out fruitless. God doesn't work the way you are purposing and if you did not know this you do now. You're trying to use scripture in a way that's against God's will, you should be careful about toying with God.

Let God make his own threats, chumpsworth.

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Quote:You're being childish, if you're an adult act like it.

I carefully regulate my childish behavior to connect to a person on the level of one who knows that an invisible and silent magical monster in the sky is real and gives a personal shit about him. If you don't like my questions, you should stop saying things which provoke them.

Quote:Scripture tells us this is against the will of God, knowing this I would not be able to pray for that, and since you do not believe you most certainly can not. God's laid out a plan from before time and he's not changing things up for your petty and selfish ways.

Scripture tells us that murdering children and taking a rape slave is okay. God's plan, after all.

(April 18, 2013 at 7:27 am)Godschild Wrote: Secular societies that were bad = societies that were bad because they were secular
if
Religious societies that are bad = religious societies that were bad because they were religious

This is false equivalence; theocratic and secular societies are not comparable by any stretch of the imagination.

Do you know what secularism actually is, how and why it was infused into the various European political systems, and what it's main precepts are?

You can be a religious fundamentalist and still be a secularist, in fact, owing to demographics, when seclarism was implemented in reformist states in the 17th century, almost all secularists were most likely Protestant Christians. Secularism doesn't impose a moral or utilitarian constraint on the behavior of the government in power (unlike, say, a theocratic one whose constitution is developed on religious premises); it merely asks for a separation of church and state (among other things, none of which could be credibly argued to justify an attrocity as there is no moral or transcendental foundation behind it!).

I recommended this article by Daniel Philpott for a grounding in the 17th century political context and what the peace of Westphalia actually entailed, and how secularism is actually the only guarantee of religious freedom aside utopia:

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/dis...id=7592472