(April 23, 2013 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote: God's universe, He created it, God's rules, God is King whether you like it or not, your choice within His plan. Simple really.

No king rules me. He is free to come down and dispute that, if he wishes.

Quote:If believing in God was all this was about he might just let you drift off into oblivion, but there's much more. God created you for worship in a relationship with Him, a relationship of love.

Relationships of love do not exist when there is a threat of punishment for refusing the affection. That is a relationship of abuse.

Quote:Here's the problem that apparently you've missed, sin, there is a payment to be made for sin, just as there's a payment involved for breaking man's law.

Sin is God's fault, not mine. He's guilty of vastly worse things than anything I've ever done. If there is a payment owed, it's your God that owes us.

Quote:The punishment fits the crime with God even though you do not think so. Without forgiveness of one's sin the sin is everlasting, the reason it's everlasting, because it is against the everlasting God, so everlasting punishment is required from the just God.

The really sad thing is that what you said probably doesn't sound retarded to you.

Quote:There is no one not even God who says you have to recognize His authority, this however does not change in the least the authority He has over everyone. I've explained above that crime is eternal when committed against the eternal God, there's no way out of it, it is that way period. All sin is detrimental and harmful, in one way or the other. God doesn't care, really, He gave His Son to die for our sins, the Creator part of the Godhead sacrificed Himself for His corrupted creation and we were the ones who corrupted His creation and continue to this very day.

Do you think that I'll change my mind and no longer hold such ridiculous ideas in contempt if you just keep repeating them over and over again? The things you are saying are psychoric. I cannot stress that enough. You are sick in the head and you need help.

Quote:God is not responsible for sin, we are. Yes God does care about the victim, the family and friends of the victim. His caring goes beyond our understanding and this is where faith plays a big role in how we relate to God.

God made people who sin, therefore, God made sin. This is logic a first grade child can understand. If you claim that God is not responsible for sin, yet insist that sin is real, then sin comes from outside the universe God created, and it proves that he is neither unique nor all-powerful, and it is foolish to worship a god which cannot even claim supremacy over his own creation.

Quote:You sound like those who would take away our guns, blame the gun not the criminal, the criminal has the power over the gun not the other way around.

What. You sit here, blaming the creation instead of the creator for sin, then immediately turn around and compare me to someone who blames the gun rather than the shooter? Wow. Congratulations, that's a Hall of Shame entry for the ages, almost as good as strodel telling everybody that he spoke for God.


[quote]Besides you can not know how many times God has keep you and your family from harm and despair, none of us can.

Yeah, I can. Zero.

Quote:There will be no company in hell, none that you will see or have a conversation with, actually no interaction whatsoever. You will hear their suffering and they yours, that's about as close as you will ever come to anyone.

Nothing says love than eternal torture and isolation! I know the irony of that is utterly above you, but yeah. How cheerful. Love me or I'll torture you forever.

Quote:I want to share something here

In the future, assume that I do not give a shit and save your time.

Quote:I'm not going to address the excuse stuff you posted,I did that in the previous post, look there for my answer.

Actually, no, you did not address it. You challenged me to find examples of it. I responded to your challenge. Have you nothing to say?

Ryan Wrote:I've said just that, Lucifer did it through his choice and so could you. This very thing will happen at judgment, people will be in His presence and still reject Him, screaming and kicking.

Of course some of us would, and with good reason. It is moral to reject a murderous tyrant. It is the weak, the foolish, and the bloodthirsty who embrace a god like yours.

Ryan Wrote:I agree wholly with you, what you seem to forget about God is to choose to be His child, and you will experience the same things but in a greater way, a way I can not explain to you and you accept it as the truth, these are the revelations from God that you hear Christians speak of. Until you allow Him to be Father you can't know.

I love my parents because I can prove they exist. They were always there. I did not have to 'have faith' in their existence. I did not have to take it on faith that they cared about me, because they were there the entire time, directly interacting with me. They were a tangible presence in my life. If someone asked me to prove all this, I very easily could. I did not have to choose to be their child so that they would love me. And, perhaps most importantly, if I did not return that love, they might be sad or disappointed, but they surely would not have seen fit to subject me to physical and mental torture to punish me for my intransigence. I am forced to imagine that you would consider that an acceptable reaction, however.

From them, from my wife, from everyone else I care about, I have all the love I need. They give it to me freely. They ask for nothing in return. They do not guilt trip me. They do not threaten me. What use do I have for the petty thug you worship?

Quote:I can not answer that question as you have put it and neither can anyone else. You are asking questions that Christians ask God, "why God do these thing have to happen." I have some answers to this situation but as a nonbeliever you would not understand, not because you're dumb not at all, I do not think that, it's a spiritual thing that Christians spend years growing into and some never develop a relationship deep enough to understand.

No, I do understand your answers. You believe that love can be bought with the threat of hell. You believe that neverending torture is an acceptable punishment. I understand precisely, it's just that I draw more accurate conclusions from them: Christianity is a dangerous and insane belief system when enough people take it seriously. There is 2000 and more years of proof to that end.

Quote:Let's address the last thing you said first. What does exist is not required to show itself, the belief that what needs to show itself is yours and that is not reality. Wild animals can live out a life right under your nose and you will never know they are there, unless you have trained senses to see.

What is this, apologetics for Bigfoot? Loch Ness Monster theology?

Quote: God has left evidence of His existence and through the Bible we can detect these things, the Bible is a study book of God and His purpose and points directly to Him when one pays attention.

Bigfoot and Nessie leave evidence in photographs and home movie footage. The Bible is no different from these.

(April 23, 2013 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote: God has left evidence of His existence and through the Bible we can detect these things, the Bible is a study book of God and His purpose and points directly to Him when one pays attention.

The Bible is no more proof of God's existence than a comic book is proof of Spider-man's existence.

(April 23, 2013 at 11:26 pm)Maelstrom Wrote:

(April 23, 2013 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote: God has left evidence of His existence and through the Bible we can detect these things, the Bible is a study book of God and His purpose and points directly to Him when one pays attention.

The Bible is no more proof of God's existence than a comic book is proof of Spider-man's existence.

Spider-Man gives us the timeless quote "With great power comes great responsibility". According to Godschild, with infinite power comes the ability to blame your mistakes on your creations.

(April 23, 2013 at 11:22 pm)Ryantology Wrote: God made people who sin, therefore, God made sin. This is logic a first grade child can understand. If you claim that God is not responsible for sin, yet insist that sin is real, then sin comes from outside the universe God created, and it proves that he is neither unique nor all-powerful, and it is foolish to worship a god which cannot even claim supremacy over his own creation.

The other important thing to note about this line of reasoning is that, in this scenario, something (sin) can come from nothing (since in this case god created man in his own image and sin spontaneously popped into being there through no action on god's part.) This renders roughly all of the creationist claims about the origin of the universe nonsensical- as we'd have examples of something coming from nothing sans god within their own theology.

Which, ironically, would make the atheist outlook the only viable one for theists, given that it's the one with no examples of things coming into being without a cause...

(April 24, 2013 at 2:21 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 23, 2013 at 11:22 pm)Ryantology Wrote: God made people who sin, therefore, God made sin. This is logic a first grade child can understand. If you claim that God is not responsible for sin, yet insist that sin is real, then sin comes from outside the universe God created, and it proves that he is neither unique nor all-powerful, and it is foolish to worship a god which cannot even claim supremacy over his own creation.

The other important thing to note about this line of reasoning is that, in this scenario, something (sin) can come from nothing (since in this case god created man in his own image and sin spontaneously popped into being there through no action on god's part.) This renders roughly all of the creationist claims about the origin of the universe nonsensical- as we'd have examples of something coming from nothing sans god within their own theology.

Which, ironically, would make the atheist outlook the only viable one for theists, given that it's the one with no examples of things coming into being without a cause...

Sin is the absence of love. It is one's choice to expel God from one's heart so that all that's left is basic self-promoting instinct. Some verses that support this:

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1 John 3:17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

According to the Bible, evil is the rejection of good. So the above arguments do not apply to God as He is in the Bible.

(April 24, 2013 at 3:36 am)Undeceived Wrote: Sin is the absence of love. It is one's choice to expel God from one's heart so that all that's left is basic self-promoting instinct. Some verses that support this:

You're missing my point: it's a binary choice. Either god created man with the capacity to sin, in which case he is responsible for sin given that it exists within a universe for which he is the creator of every individual part, or sin exists without any input from god, hence making it a thing that began to exist without a creator.

Either god- the thing these theistic apologetics attributes as the creator of all things in the universe- created sin, or he did not. Those are literally the only choices here. If it is the former, he is responsible for sin. If it is the latter, then the bible makes reference to something existing that god didn't create.

I'm against the separation of church and state... I think they should get back together, make up, and raise their baby to new heights.

Because their baby is fucking Charlie Sheen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QS0q3mGPGg

(April 24, 2013 at 3:53 am)Esquilax Wrote: god created man with the capacity to sin

(April 24, 2013 at 3:53 am)Esquilax Wrote: Either god.. created sin, or he did not.

Which one is it? Did he create the capacity or sin itself?

(April 24, 2013 at 3:58 am)Undeceived Wrote:

(April 24, 2013 at 3:53 am)Esquilax Wrote: god created man with the capacity to sin

(April 24, 2013 at 3:53 am)Esquilax Wrote: Either god.. created sin, or he did not.

Which one is it? Did he create the capacity or sin itself?

Both... hence why we call him The Creator, and not a creator.

(April 24, 2013 at 4:01 am)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote:

(April 24, 2013 at 3:58 am)Undeceived Wrote: Which one is it? Did he create the capacity or sin itself?

Both... hence why we call him The Creator, and not a creator.

Sin/evil refers to a bad relationship between two (possibly good) things. Please explain to me how one creates such a relationship. I can see how it is possible to create the capacity or choice for such a relationship, but the relationship itself?