(May 22, 2013 at 5:05 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote: So, if I am understanding things correctly, the law of the OT no longer applies as a means to get to heaven but it does apply for defining what sin is.

Here is my question: If homosexuality is just one among many sins, why all the hubub?

I don't know. Maybe it is the forced acceptance to legitmacy/marriage resulting the adoption of the next generation.

Quote: Why do so many people focus on that one thing? Where is the outcry over the wearing of mixed fabrics and trimmed beards? What makes homosexuality so much worse than all those other things?

The degerdation of the family leads to the down fall of soceity. When one justifies a moral sin (as apposed to a cermonial or a social law) and then moves to villify all of those who appose the justification of that moral sin then, it is just becomes a matter of time before those who up hold God moral standard cast out of soceity.

Quote:Also, if you say that OT no longer applies, then why the outrage?

The OT still applies. All of it. What changes is we now have on going redemption for sin avaiable to us if we repent of it. We can not repen of it if said sin has been socially justified and accepted.

(May 23, 2013 at 9:51 am)Drich Wrote: The degerdation of the family leads to the down fall of soceity.

Do you have any evidence that homosexuality will lead to this?

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And if the OT still applies, can't we just sacrifice some animals to atone for sin?

(May 23, 2013 at 9:51 am)Drich Wrote: ]The degerdation of the family leads to the down fall of soceity.

Indeed. This is why we should be encouraging more homosexual couples to foster and adopt children and save them from the care system. More happy families = a happy society!

(May 22, 2013 at 1:34 pm)Ryantology Wrote: So, when you do not do what God would have you do (i.e. killing bratty children or people who don't take Saturday off), you do not love God.

Show me where we as Christians are to kill anyone. Book Chapter and Verse please.

If your are asking were the OT Jews commanded to do such things, the answer was yes. Not as a matter of love but as a matter of obediance, as the dynamic of their relationship was not based on love/doing your best. Their righteousness was the righteousness of the pharasees that Jesus spoke of in Mt 5. It was based on the law, and their adhearance to it.

That is why Christ told us we must exceed the righteousness of the Pharasees, thus changing the paradyme from following the rules to seeking a state of grace.

Quote:The law continues to this day according to Matt 5.

Indeed it does but as the passage in gal says it is not there to follow. it is there to show you like the rest of us are in perpetual sin and can not ever hope to obtain righteousness through following the letter of the law. This should make those who seek God, look for another way to obtain the righteousness needed to enter Heaven.

Quote:And, the fact that the law carried so many gruesome penalties means that it was certainly not just to be demonstrative.

Which is why Jesus died on the cross for your sins. He took the 'gruesome penalities' that were slated for you (potentially) upon Himself. He was punished so you don't have to be. (pending one condition; that you accept His sacerfice, and follow 2 simple rules. Love the Lord your God with all of your being, and love your neighbor as yourself.)

Quote:It is a bad law because it does not explain or justify itself. I know that you don't think God has to explain or justify himself to anybody, but it's a bad law nonetheless for lacking it. It's nothing but the arbitrary whims of a capricious tyrant. The law serves only to make people do what God wants, which is obviously a lot of death and killing and misery and pointless restrictions.

This may have been true 2000 years ago, but again as the passage i left you intdicates, the laws only purpose now is to show you that you are in sin and need to seek attonement for said sin.

Quote: The character of Joffrey from Game of Thrones shows exactly the same sort of behavior as God in the Bible, only Joffrey never pretends that he's a good guy.

Maybe my version of Game of thrones is different than yours... In that geoffrey only pretends to be a 'good guy' and hates it to the point of killing someone when they find out who he really is.

..Which has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.

Quote:And you mean to say this means that Jesus really didn't mean it when he insisted that everybody follow the law to the letter and not violate a single commandment, nor instruct anyone else to do so? You never seem to address that.

Mat 5:

Quote:17 “Don’t think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them.

In this passage Chirst says He is not here to invalidate the Law of the prophets. He is here to complete or to give a better understanding to them. This not only includes the thou shalls and the thou shall nots. This also includes the laws pertaining to attonement for sin. (Keep this in mind)

What is attonement? In most cases it was a blood offering or a burnt offering put in place by God to absolve one of minor transgressions. The major sin required the death of the sinner.

This is why after Christ no one need die or be put to death.

Quote:18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.

Again all of the law still applies. This includes the Moral law, the Civial law, and the cermonial law. To break these laws is still a sin.

Quote:19 “A person should obey every command in the law, even one that does not seem important. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God’s kingdom. But whoever obeys the law and teaches others to obey it will be great in God’s kingdom.

This may seem like a bad thing if you did not know what 'least and greatest in the Kingdom means.'
Mat 11:11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Quote:20 I tell you that you must do better than the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. If you are not more pleasing to God than they are, you will never enter God’s kingdom.

This is the part I have been trying to explain. The pharisees were the most law abiding (down to the smallest letter/What most of you think christianity should be) They did everything humanly possiable to follow the law. But according to Christ their hearts were corrupt. It was their hearts that would condemn them. For the rest of Mat 5 Christ tells us that in His completion of the Law that the law not only covers your actions, but your inner feelings/wants and desires. Which makes us all guilty of the most heinous sins. (The Major sins requiring death under the law.)

That is why Christ said if you hope to enter heaven you mustt seek a Righteousness (Or state of being the God finds acceptable for entry into Heaven.) Greater than that of the pharisees. Read the rest of Mt 5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=ERV

Christ in this passage makes the law an obstical so great that no one can get around it. (Like a massive mountain) Unless less you have the faith of a mustard seed. Then Christ tells us if you tell this mountain to cast itself into the sea and it will. Meaning with faith in Him, the obstical of the law moves aside.

Again not that it does not apply as all who have not or will not seek attonement will find out on the day of their judgement. It's just those who believe in Christ are not held to the standard of the Law as a means to their righteousness. But again that does not mean 'we' can accept Christ in order to sin more. For this whole relationship is to be based on love. If we love God we will do our best to keep his commandments.

Quote:The passage Means exactly what it says as a whole.
I honestly do not know if you do not understand the whole concept or simply refuse to look at any more of the passage than what you need for your argument. The Law Jesus did not come to abolish is all still in effect this includes the do's and don'ts, but it also includes the caviots for atonement of sin. In the Law there is a way for sin to be atoned for. Christ's atonement covers all sin. This does not mean that the law is null and void. This means your sins are forgiven as long as you are loving God with all that God has given you to love and worship Him. That means salvation becomes about complete love and devotion no matter what that might look like as long as it is 100% complete effort on your part, and it ceases to be about law and loop holes, and outward showings/going through the motions of religious practices with no feeling, want or desire.

So, what happens when God judges you and sees that you made absolutely no effort whatsoever to even try to hold to most of his law? You didn't kill your unruly children. You didn't stone homosexuals. Your wife went to church a week after birthing a daughter. What is your atonement even worth when you don't actually even try?

Quote:Again not contradictory, you have taken 1 verse out of a bank of 5 expounded on the one verse's meaning and have ignored the rest of the passage for the sake of your argument. whether you do this out of ignorance or obstinance is of little concern to me, because at this point you have been exposed to the truth several times. What you do with it is up to you.

It really isn't contradictory, until you attempt to interpret that particular passage as not meaning what it very clearly says in multiple translations. Even if you can be forgiven in spite of failing to live up to the law, if you're not even trying to live up to it (and no decent human being would), on what basis do you think God is going to forgive you? Do you think he's going to look at the fact that you're so sanctimonious and preachy and think that makes up for your complete contempt for his laws? That is why I keep bringing this subject up. I know that following the law is not necessary by itself to go to heaven, but Jesus does expect everyone to follow it, and it's obvious that God takes your adherence to the law into account when he decides how sincere you are about loving him. And, if that's true, you're just as fucked as I am.

(May 22, 2013 at 11:14 am)John V Wrote: Romans 2
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them

I have to admit that this passage makes no sense to me.
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(May 23, 2013 at 9:54 am)Faith No More Wrote: Do you have any evidence that homosexuality will lead to this?

Pop culture, and the decline of this soceity in just 2 generations

Quote:And if the OT still applies, can't we just sacrifice some animals to atone for sin?

The blood of animals only covered minor sins. Things like violating the sabbath day, blaspheme, and adultry would demand death.

And after what Christ said/did in matthew 5 just the want to do any of those major sins would also demand death.

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(May 23, 2013 at 10:14 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote:

(May 23, 2013 at 9:51 am)Drich Wrote: ]The degerdation of the family leads to the down fall of soceity.

Indeed. This is why we should be encouraging more homosexual couples to foster and adopt children and save them from the care system. More happy families = a happy society!

Or a "Gay" soceity.



Get it? Happy/Gay???

(May 23, 2013 at 10:30 am)Drich Wrote: Pop culture, and the decline of this soceity in just 2 generations

Surely you know that what you posted here is not evidence that homosexuality has or will lead to the degradation of society. In fact, you have failed to even demonstrate that any degradation of society is happening. You've just conglomerated bare assertions and opinions.

(May 23, 2013 at 2:13 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: See you in "Hell" Ivy. I'll make sure the Aircon is just right and we have a plentiful supply of exciting things to do and think about...after all...all the engineers/ scientists etc will be there!

(May 23, 2013 at 2:38 am)Ivy Wrote: Love it, kichi. See you there. Since hell will have all the brains, I bet we can even find a way of starting a mafia where we smuggle porn, alcohol, and education into heaven.

Ladies, count me in.

As if I had a choice!

(May 23, 2013 at 10:30 am)Drich Wrote: Pop culture, and the decline of this soceity in just 2 generations

As it has been said by every generation of those that come after it.
Might I recommend you pick up a general history book and see what the old-timers had to say about kids in the 1920's... The music *gasp* The alcohol and drug usage *double gasp* Women wearing their hair short *faints*

(May 23, 2013 at 8:48 am)John V Wrote: That's illogical. If conscience is less than absolutely persuasive, law is required. If conscience is absolutely persuasive, there is no free will.

I purposefully did not suggest an absolutely persuasive conscience for precisely that reason. Just one which is far more difficult to ignore.

It's kind of beside the point, though, because that passage assumes that the conscience is sort of like an innate form of God's law. It's not. A person's conscience develops based upon the morals of the society in which they are raised. Otherwise, would not God's only important moral imperative (worshiping him) be innate to everyone in the world? Conscience is not a disembodied outside voice whispering in your head, it's just what we call the process of evaluating moral implications of an action.

Quote:Interesting - that's an answer some theists give to the problem of evil/suffering, yet atheists tend to discount it.

I discount it because it assumes that God could not have come up with a way to impress goodness upon people without evil. It also calls into question the assertion that God desires to destroy evil; would that not make it impossible to recognize God's supposedly absolute goodness? And, if God's goodness is absolute, why does he seem so evil to me even with evil in the world? That should be as impossible for me as breathing jello. It's just not possible for me to escape the fact that most of God's documented actions reflect mankind's evil and imperfections rather than its virtues.

(May 23, 2013 at 10:30 am)Drich Wrote: Show me where we as Christians are to kill anyone. Book Chapter and Verse please.

I'll do better than that:

Drich Wrote:The OT still applies. All of it. What changes is we now have on going redemption for sin avaiable to us if we repent of it. We can not repen of it if said sin has been socially justified and accepted.

Quote:If your are asking were the OT Jews commanded to do such things, the answer was yes. Not as a matter of love but as a matter of obediance, as the dynamic of their relationship was not based on love/doing your best. Their righteousness was the righteousness of the pharasees that Jesus spoke of in Mt 5. It was based on the law, and their adhearance to it.

I was under the impression that one could not love God if one willfully refuses to obey him. And, since according to you, the OT still applies, then only Christians who do things like killing bratty kids really love God.

Quote:That is why Christ told us we must exceed the righteousness of the Pharasees, thus changing the paradyme from following the rules to seeking a state of grace.

You cannot exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees if you fail so miserably to adhere to laws which still apply to you, as a Christian.

Quote:Indeed it does but as the passage in gal says it is not there to follow. it is there to show you like the rest of us are in perpetual sin and can not ever hope to obtain righteousness through following the letter of the law. This should make those who seek God, look for another way to obtain the righteousness needed to enter Heaven.

You wish to interpret it that way because you want to think that God doesn't take your flaunting of the law into account, but as I read it, he most certainly still does consider obedience to his laws as a large part of what he considers true atonement. You're not even trying to behave as he wishes you to behave, so what is your atonement even worth?

Quote:This may have been true 2000 years ago, but again as the passage i left you intdicates, the laws only purpose now is to show you that you are in sin and need to seek attonement for said sin.

As I indicated, that's just you playing lawyer.

Quote:Maybe my version of Game of thrones is different than yours... In that geoffrey only pretends to be a 'good guy' and hates it to the point of killing someone when they find out who he really is.

Your version of Game of Thrones is definitely different from mine, then. Joffrey never even tries to pretend he's a good guy. He has absolute power over everyone as the King, and uses it mostly to torment and kill anybody he wants, for any reason he likes--mostly just because he enjoys suffering. He's probably the most hated villain on TV, even though he's pretty much just the Christian God (behaviorally) without the false pretenses of goodness.

Quote:Again all of the law still applies. This includes the Moral law, the Civial law, and the cermonial law. To break these laws is still a sin.

Yes, and this is the center of my point. You, personally, do not hold to the vast majority of those laws. You don't even try. You'd be in prison if you even attempted to hold to a quarter of them. You probably do not even want to kill your child (assuming you have one) if it is recalcitrant. I hope. But, what will God think of your refusal to honor his laws, or to even try? What will your atonement actually mean to God? "Sorry" means nothing if you're not willing to change your behavior and do as you are told, and you obviously are not willing.

Quote:This may seem like a bad thing if you did not know what 'least and greatest in the Kingdom means.'
Mat 11:11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

That does not say what it means. There's no indication that being in the kingdom of heaven is, at all, a pleasant or desirable thing in the first place. Perhaps hell is a part of that kingdom the way a prison is a part of a community, and that's where most of you are going.

Quote:This is the part I have been trying to explain. The pharisees were the most law abiding (down to the smallest letter/What most of you think christianity should be) They did everything humanly possiable to follow the law. But according to Christ their hearts were corrupt. It was their hearts that would condemn them. For the rest of Mat 5 Christ tells us that in His completion of the Law that the law not only covers your actions, but your inner feelings/wants and desires. Which makes us all guilty of the most heinous sins. (The Major sins requiring death under the law.)

And the part I have been trying to explain is, by absolutely refusing to even try to follow the law, your heart is just as corrupt as theirs, and that you will be judged accordingly.

Quote:That is why Christ said if you hope to enter heaven you mustt seek a Righteousness (Or state of being the God finds acceptable for entry into Heaven.) Greater than that of the pharisees. Read the rest of Mt 5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=ERV

Your righteousness is far less than that of the Pharisees.

Quote:Christ in this passage makes the law an obstical so great that no one can get around it. (Like a massive mountain) Unless less you have the faith of a mustard seed. Then Christ tells us if you tell this mountain to cast itself into the sea and it will. Meaning with faith in Him, the obstical of the law moves aside.

So, then, the entire concept of Mosaic law was a cruel joke?

By the way, mustard seeds don't have faith. So I guess I'm good.

Quote:Again not that it does not apply as all who have not or will not seek attonement will find out on the day of their judgement. It's just those who believe in Christ are not held to the standard of the Law as a means to their righteousness. But again that does not mean 'we' can accept Christ in order to sin more. For this whole relationship is to be based on love. If we love God we will do our best to keep his commandments.

And, this is why, if there's a hell, virtually every Christian that ever existed will be there right along with people like me.

(May 23, 2013 at 4:16 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(May 23, 2013 at 8:48 am)John V Wrote: That's illogical. If conscience is less than absolutely persuasive, law is required. If conscience is absolutely persuasive, there is no free will.

I purposefully did not suggest an absolutely persuasive conscience for precisely that reason. Just one which is far more difficult to ignore.

Again, if it's less than absolutely persuasive, law is required.

Quote:It's kind of beside the point, though, because that passage assumes that the conscience is sort of like an innate form of God's law.

I also included the passage on being judged according to your own judgment, which works even if the person's conscience is far removed from god's law.

Quote:I discount it because it assumes that God could not have come up with a way to impress goodness upon people without evil.

Oh, I know the drill. It's interesting that in another context an atheist slips up and uses the argument.

Quote:It also calls into question the assertion that God desires to destroy evil; would that not make it impossible to recognize God's supposedly absolute goodness?

No, as all beings would have known evil. No new babies in heaven ya know.

Quote:And, if God's goodness is absolute, why does he seem so evil to me even with evil in the world?

Because men are evil, but most don't want to admit it.

(May 23, 2013 at 12:32 pm)festive1 Wrote: As it has been said by every generation of those that come after it.
Might I recommend you pick up a general history book and see what the old-timers had to say about kids in the 1920's... The music *gasp* The alcohol and drug usage *double gasp* Women wearing their hair short *faints*

The myth of the golden age. It's as old as the written word (and apparently a great deal older). People seem to feel the need to devalue the world - as they approach their exit. Guess it softens the blow. "Fuck this place, it's gone to hell anyway".