(June 2, 2013 at 6:45 pm)Dena Wrote:

(June 2, 2013 at 3:59 pm)Consilius Wrote: What Jesus did is wipe the slate clean. He took sin upon himself and it died with him on a cross. The alternative is that we suffer for our own sins.
God doesn't do magic. The universe is subject to laws and he works within the laws he created.

The laws of the universe do not require a human being to die in order that other human beings to not burn for eternity. This is delusional thinking.

Is this being said out of pity for Jesus? The man who predicted his own death then continued to act towards it?
You are generalizing Christ's mission. Christians don't regularly sacrifice people for their absolution. But Jews once sacrificed animals. What Jesus did was a pure, holy sacrifice to end all sacrifices. It cannot be replicated.

(June 2, 2013 at 3:59 pm)Consilius Wrote: Consider justice this way: a murderer is truly sorry for what he did. Do we let him go, or do we make him pay the price for his crimes?

Quote:We keep him in jail so he can't murder anyone else. This is a far cry from the Christian idea that humans suffer for eternity for their sin or that some god-man had to die so some of them wouldn't have to suffer.

I thought the murderer was a changed man on the inside and would never kill again. Let's pretend he actually was.

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(June 2, 2013 at 1:09 pm)smax Wrote: [quote='Consilius' pid='454232' dateline='1370155669']
What you are suggesting is that the Bible somehow multiplies the value of humanity.

I actually have no problem with the value of human life being great. I value it that way.

However, I'm not an advocate of stories being invented which suggest that the entire point of the universe is the struggle of human beings.

That's ridiciulous in my view.

Quote:In the same Bible, humans are at many times helpless at the will of God.
What the Bible does is put humans in place, taking our strengths and our weaknesses, and makes us who we are: masters, indeed, but masters of the created world, and components of the created world who are as much subject to the laws of nature as animals are.
It takes something outside of the created world to show us that we are not the end-all. There is something above us.
Without religion, actually, humans are the greatest things that exist and have nothing to heed to.

I agree that the Bible mixes both extreme human importance with a blatant disregard for human life at the same time.

But, the grand theme is that human beings are the centerpiece of the universe, and that is ridiculous.

God, not human beings, is the centerpiece of the universe, because he brought it into existence.
Among his creation is man, the creation he values most. Humans are the only things that actually have the ability to put value on other things.
In respect to mountains and tigers and nebulas, man is physically insignificant.
Our physical strength isn't what matters, but the things we give human beings value for is. The way we think, trust, believe, and love is what makes us something different.

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(June 2, 2013 at 1:17 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: I never answered the thread title. Uh, yes it absolutely fucking is. The idea that we're the special ones, that we're the ones the Earth revolves around is egotistical and ignorant. All we are is an annoying-ass disease to the Earth. We've only been here for literally 0.004% of the Earth's history. We're nothing to it. There's no reason the universe revolves around humans.

(May 31, 2013 at 11:32 pm)Consilius Wrote: God comes down AS Jesus to die on a cross. In another sense, God sends Jesus, who willingly performs the task. Jesus exists in unison with God, he is not an celestial being doing him a favor.
Jesus is fully human and divine. Being human, Jesus lives a full human life as the son of Mary. He is also the revelation of God himself. That is why Jesus calls himself a 'Son of God' as well as the 'Son of Man'. He is where the human meets the divine and brings them together again by conquering the sin that set them apart.

Okay, so they're not the same thing.

(May 31, 2013 at 3:50 pm)Consilius Wrote: Yup. I was just trying to make my reply compatible to what Greatest said. He wanted to talk about God and Jesus as different people, so I went along with it, since they ARE different natures of one person.

If they are different natures of the same thing, Jesus would not be able to be his own independent person.

You are thinking of Jesus being trapped inside God and then forced onto Earth under divine mind control.
Christ exists in unison with God and they work together as different natures of the same being. With the Holy Spirit, together the universe was created and together it is saved.
If they have acted in unison throughout human history and have shared experiences, why would one of them want to do anything other than the others?
That's what the Trinity is. And it's a mystery.
By a mystery, I mean something that is incredibly hard for anyone head around and understand fully because it is so complex. Not something that no one can explain.

(June 2, 2013 at 5:31 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I don't see any evidence of jesus having done anything - but more importantly, how this could even be achieved is left a mystery. I'll keep my own actions and their consequences - the good and the bad, thank you. This whole sin business is less than wrong - it's meaningless. No magic? So I guess magic is off the table now as a mechanism for this whole taking up of "sins" as well.

It's clear that we're working from a vastly different idea of what the word justice means. I'd call the non-event you're describing an act of depravity and injustice. Punishing one for the sins of another? Withholding consequence n one by the virtue of the actions of another? That doesn't fly here, in our system of justice. Why would I hold a god to a lesser standard than I hold men?

God voluntarily took on the penalty for sin as Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ wasn't killed by God the Father, the people he was saving from death killed him, and unknowingly caused the events that brought them their own salvation.

Quote:A murderer being truly sorry does not expatiate the consequences of his actions. He serves a sentence. "Not guilty" is what gets you off the hook, not "really, really sorry".

My point exactly. In the same way, God couldn't let the sin just dissipate into the air. It had to be done away with, and someone had to pay for it.
God provided the bail for the people who had offended him.

(June 2, 2013 at 9:51 pm)Consilius Wrote: God voluntarily took on the penalty for sin as Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ wasn't killed by God the Father, the people he was saving from death killed him, and unknowingly caused the events that brought them their own salvation.

More pious prattle? I still don't see any evidence that any jesus ever did anything. Your just-so stories about who and why (and lacking a how) don't have the power to change this narrative from being one of scapegoating.

Quote:My point exactly. In the same way, God couldn't let the sin just dissipate into the air. It had to be done away with, and someone had to pay for it.
God provided the bail for the people who had offended him.

Lets add that to the long list of things your god can't do then? The manner of payment is precisely what I take issue with in this fairy tale.

Sacrifices (especially human/deity) are sick and the Jews were not commanded concerning sacrifice when they were led out of Egypt.

To anyone who thinks that human sacrifice is righteous I say: "Isaiah 5:20 brother, Isaiah 5:20..."

The only person who thought of Jesus' death on the cross as a sacrifice at the time it was being done was Jesus himself.
To the rest, it was either brutal murder or punishment for a heretic.
Nobody strapped Jesus to a cross for their sins to be forgiven.
Jesus willingly sacrificed himself (notice how the word 'sacrifice' is being used in another sense here) for the good of mankind. It was not forced from him by either God or man.

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(June 2, 2013 at 9:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(June 2, 2013 at 9:51 pm)Consilius Wrote: God voluntarily took on the penalty for sin as Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ wasn't killed by God the Father, the people he was saving from death killed him, and unknowingly caused the events that brought them their own salvation.

More pious prattle? I still don't see any evidence that any jesus ever did anything. Your just-so stories about who and why (and lacking a how) don't have the power to change this narrative from being one of scapegoating.

You, as an atheist, don't believe Jesus existed because you see no historical evidence for his existence. I, as a Christian, believe Jesus existed because I do see historical evidence for his existence. Battle that one out somewhere else. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUB5fDW5xq8

Quote:My point exactly. In the same way, God couldn't let the sin just dissipate into the air. It had to be done away with, and someone had to pay for it.
God provided the bail for the people who had offended him.

Lets add that to the long list of things your god can't do then? The manner of payment is precisely what I take issue with in this fairy tale.
[/quote]
Can the President send the U.S. Army after Republicans? I'm not saying that God cannot fashion some other means of saving mankind. What I AM saying is that forgetting the injustices of everybody would be immoral. God wouldn't be worth worshipping if he just let some of our sins slide.

Consillus

The Bible says everything was created for Christ, a human being.

So, you are wrong

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(June 2, 2013 at 10:13 pm)catfish Wrote: Sacrifices (especially human/deity) are sick and the Jews were not commanded concerning sacrifice when they were led out of Egypt.

To anyone who thinks that human sacrifice is righteous I say: "Isaiah 5:20 brother, Isaiah 5:20..."

oh great, another literalist fundy!

(June 2, 2013 at 10:43 pm)smax Wrote:

(June 2, 2013 at 10:13 pm)catfish Wrote: Sacrifices (especially human/deity) are sick and the Jews were not commanded concerning sacrifice when they were led out of Egypt.

To anyone who thinks that human sacrifice is righteous I say: "Isaiah 5:20 brother, Isaiah 5:20..."

oh great, another literalist fundy!

Awww. Sugar, are you going to be my new pet?

(June 2, 2013 at 10:32 pm)Consilius Wrote: You, as an atheist, don't believe Jesus existed because you see no historical evidence for his existence. I, as a Christian, believe Jesus existed because I do see historical evidence for his existence. Battle that one out somewhere else.

No that's okay, you're committed to using things which you do not intend to demonstrate as answers to a question, and of course this would be the way it went. It matters very little to me, the only thing that would make this fairy tale -more- reprehensible is if it were actually true.

Quote:Can the President send the U.S. Army after Republicans? I'm not saying that God cannot fashion some other means of saving mankind. What I AM saying is that forgetting the injustices of everybody would be immoral. God wouldn't be worth worshipping if he just let some of our sins slide.

Is the POTUS god? So, just so I have this straight, you reckon your god -could have- done this some other way, but chose scapegoating for whatever reason? Is that supposed to be more or less immoral on the part of a god? A scapegoating god isn't worth my worship.

You haven't contradicted me. I don't worship a God of "let it slide". Was God supposed to FORGET about the wrongdoings of humanity? That would be the definition of injustice.
Christ's sacrifice is scapegoating, yes. Scapegoating of himself. Or do you feel sorry for Jesus because he gave himself up for the rest of us? Not to mention that Jesus is also God.
Nobody killed anybody with the purpose of absolving sins: not the Jews, not the Romans, and not God the Father.
Christ's death was a sacrifice he approved of and executed himself.

(June 2, 2013 at 10:52 pm)catfish Wrote:

(June 2, 2013 at 10:43 pm)smax Wrote: oh great, another literalist fundy!

Awww. Sugar, are you going to be my new pet?

Nah, just an occasional thorn, reminding you how twisted and inconsistent your logic is.

Ill get bored soon.