(June 5, 2013 at 11:07 am)ronedee Wrote: Its about LOVE!

So I keep hearing, but I don't see it - at least not by any use of the word I'm familiar with.

Quote:And I have had the concern you have! And only through the Holy Spirit was I able to understand...and it's a constant learning process! I didn't wake up one day and say: "I have it NOW!" ....hell-no!

It took ghosts and magic for you to understand something...well...I haven't been privy to any ghosts or magic in my life so I guess I;m just screwed. To be fair, if the situation is as described I;d rather be screwed than be on-board. I can't stress this enough.

Quote:Most don't fully understand the concept...including me at times!

Then perhaps you should leave the explanations to those that do?

Quote:But, because of love, God feels responsible for what we have to go through... even if we did sin against Him.

Its like our children! I have several...and there is NOTHING I wouldn't do for them! Including laying down my life!

There we are entirely in the same boat. Unfortunately, I understand that I wouldn't be doing my children any great service by leaving them behind me in a world in which scapegoating was acceptable. Perhaps you see my dilemma - since you had the same concern? Sure, sure, I'd try to run it passed the fabric of the cosmos because my love for them would likely overwhelm my better judgement....but this isn't exactly a very positive scenario..now is it? I'd also hope that I had raised them well enough to understand why this was no gift, why it was not an expression of love befitting a father with their children's interests in mind. And horror of horrors, I'd like to think that I'll e able to raise my children to be the kind of people who take ownership of their actions -and the consequences- and refuse to relinquish ownership of either out of brute integrity -even to their own detriment. All of this, mind you, is just where I'm at...and like any parent - I'd prefer to see my children turn out better than me.

Quote:God feels the same way about us!

If the parent analogy is to hold water, if I'm to appraise the actions (or motivations) of a god by my own actions (or motivations) as a parent..........then I'm left to wonder why god would impose such a situation upon me - knowing me as a father knows his son - when I couldn't personally conceive of such a sleight myself, and this...mind you, because of an understanding of the word love to which I am very familiar. I'm not going to hand my children a fistful of money with the blood still running out of the creases, and I'm certainly not going to tell them that punishing another (or me punishing myself) will absolve them of the consequences of their actions....

I think that this is the moment at which I mention what I have had occassion to mention so many times before. When I criticize this notion of vicarious redemption (and via blood/life sacrifice) I am not criticizing the notion of belief in god on it;s count - because as I mentioned above - that wouldn't be a blip on my radar either way - I'm criticizing the very core of a persons opinions that would allow for (or even worse, praise the virtues of) such a thing.

In short, if your god loves me, if your god knows me as a father knows a son, and if your god loves me as I love my own children (or even more) he's going to have to cease offering such a disturbing thing (and wouldn't it be oh so pleasant if something entirely less ghoulish was put in it's place?). Roger? If he can't, or if he won't..then so be it, but the father to son analogy shatters at that point (as does any narrative about this beings immense power)- and I just don't get to put my hand in the cookie jar...

-I'm okay with that.

(see what happens when you appeal to emotion and say -because love-? You are confronted with the brutish reality that what you have offered is entirely personal, and entirely irrelevant if I don't see love where you see love. You may also find that you don't see love here either -except- in the case of making a special allowance for a special friend. I can, in turn, granting your appeal - reverse the course of your river- explaining to you that I cannot be a party to this...-because love-)

(June 4, 2013 at 9:26 pm)Drich Wrote:

(June 4, 2013 at 7:36 pm)Zarith Wrote: So the next time someone says something like "Christ died for our sins" I should tell them they are wrong? I should explain to them that he died for no reason, but was resurrected for our sins? And that if he had died of, say, pneumonia, nothing much would be different?

Post 13 answers the op. your current questions are not reflected in the op. are you intentionally moving the goal posts or are you unwilling to address the answers given?

Nah. I went back to look at post 13. It doesn't explain anything. Just some mindlessly asserted dribble: "Hell is death. Resurrection is life."

(June 5, 2013 at 11:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: It took ghosts and magic for you to understand something...well...I haven't been privy to any ghosts or magic in my life so I guess I;m just screwed. To be fair, if the situation is as described I;d rather be screwed than be on-board. I can't stress this enough.

Ok...don't get stuck on "ghosts". There is no magic here. What is a better [explanation] is "enlightenment". By whatever means you would have.

If this whole idea of the Holy Spirit is a sticking point...you are missing the point. When a revelation comes from God, it is through the Holy Spirit, not the brain. The brain uses deduction to explain. The Spirit uses addtion to explain. For me, the connection came after that enlightenment. Explaining my process is exactly that! "My process." And that is the problem Christians have in finding common ground w/ Atheists. Even with each other!

You are exactly right when you say: "personal experience". It can only be that way! Between us and God. And our path to Him.

Nothing I say will bring you to Him. That's up to you.

(June 5, 2013 at 11:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: Then perhaps you should leave the explanations to those that do?

Then I'm not explaining "anything" at all for you?

(June 5, 2013 at 11:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: In short, if your god loves me, if your god knows me as a father knows a son, and if your god loves me as I love my own children (or even more) he's going to have to cease offering such a disturbing thing (and wouldn't it be oh so pleasant if something entirely less ghoulish was put in it's place?). Roger? If he can't, or if he won't..then so be it, but the father to son analogy shatters at that point (as does any narrative about this beings immense power)- and I just don't get to put my hand in the cookie jar...

-I'm okay with that.

(see what happens when you appeal to emotion and say -because love-? You are confronted with the brutish reality that what you have offered is entirely personal, and entirely irrelevant if I don't see love where you see love. You may also find that you don't see love here either -except- in the case of making a special allowance for a special friend. I can, in turn, granting your appeal - reverse the course of your river- explaining to you that I cannot be a party to this...-because love-)

Well...I guess its what you put into what you can see. Does it fit my lifestyle?

If for a just a second... you could see death as a necessity for life to begin? As [the means] for something much, MUCH better!

Like the birth of a child!

My neice (Amanda) at this very moment is having her first child. Amanda is in very much pain. She was in a car accident 2 years ago and broke her spine. The doctors don't want to medicate her much.

She has been in labor for the second day. There will be more pain, and blood and tears. Amanda may end-up with more, permanent damage to her spine! Or even paralysis!! And she knew this day would come!

But the end will justify the means in which "she" in this instance, and we get [there]!

Some women wouldn't have gotten pregnant. Some would've aborted the baby. My neice wants her little girl to live!

Each decision is right in the eyes of the "woman" who made it.

But only one is about LOVE for another!

Your decision is based on what you think is a horrible way to show love.

My decision is based on "whatever way" God wants to show His love.

If the blood of Christ will save me...then drench me in it! Amen!

(June 4, 2013 at 9:49 pm)Zarith Wrote:

(June 4, 2013 at 9:26 pm)Drich Wrote: Post 13 answers the op. your current questions are not reflected in the op. are you intentionally moving the goal posts or are you unwilling to address the answers given?

I gave your non-argument a more complete response than I felt it deserved, honestly. It isn't moving the goalposts when I take your own word game and run with the logical consequences.

So you fancy yourself as a forward thinker. Not all of us do. So maybe you can tell me how you got from your orginal questions, to the ones you have about Christ dying for sins?

If there was indeed a 'logical progression' then why not logically 'progress' together?

---

(June 5, 2013 at 11:46 am)Thackerie Wrote:

(June 4, 2013 at 9:26 pm)Drich Wrote: Post 13 answers the op. your current questions are not reflected in the op. are you intentionally moving the goal posts or are you unwilling to address the answers given?

Nah. I went back to look at post 13. It doesn't explain anything. Just some mindlessly asserted dribble: "Hell is death. Resurrection is life."

Here is the OP:

Quote:If any 1 person's sins are grievous enough to warrant an eternity in hell, how does someone else 'pay for' the sins of everybody without themselves spending an eternity in hell?

In the OP there is a statement, and a question.
The Statement:

Quote:If any 1 person's sins are grievous enough to warrant an eternity in hell,

The question:

Quote:how does someone else 'pay for' the sins of everybody without themselves spending an eternity in hell?

My response:
Hell is Spiritual Death. The bible refers to Hell as being a place and as being Death. Or a Place to Die spiritually, a Place where the Spirit dies/Consumed by Hell fire.

The bible does not give us the impression that Hell is the Devils realm where he rules with a pitch fork, and torments people. All who are sent to Hell are sent there to be consumed by Hell fire. Only Satan is to be punished for eternity. (This world is Satan's play ground not Hell, he is sent there to be punished like everyone else.)

Resurrection is Life. or a return to Life. an Awaking.

So how does one pay for sins and not spend eternity in Hell/Death? He awakens from death/Sheol.

(June 5, 2013 at 12:55 pm)ronedee Wrote: Ok...don't get stuck on "ghosts". There is no magic here.

-said the catholic before immediately resuming the ghosts and magic narrative.....

Quote:For me, the connection came after that enlightenment. Explaining my process is exactly that! "My process." And that is the problem Christians have in finding common ground w/ Atheists. Even with each other!

Yet we both exist in a shared reality. If you cannot explain this principle from the basis of our shared reality -and must instead defer -over and over to ghosts and magic (all the while trying to distance yourself from it..apparently) then I'd say that's the problem. Not that you can't explain your "method" but that you can't seem to establish that you have one to begin with. Let me make this as simple as possible. You have mentioned that you had the same concern as I did? Correct? What did this ghost tell you/insert in you - whatever- that made scapegoating okay one moment, when the moment before it was not?

Quote:Then I'm not explaining "anything" at all for you?

To be completely honest, sometimes I think you're not actually trying to explain anything to me.....

Quote:If for a just a second... you could see death as a necessity for life to begin?

I can, and do see death that way - but what that has to do with scapegoating is something that you're going to have to flesh out here.

Quote:As [the means] for something much, MUCH better!

I could very plainly see that if you could show me who was using it as such- in the manner you describe. So rather than pleading with me to "see"...why don't you just show me?

Quote:Your decision is based on what you think is a horrible way to show love.

My decision is based on "whatever way" God wants to show His love.

If the blood of Christ will save me...then drench me in it! Amen!

This is precisely the reason that all of your analogies about parents -including this one (that I snipped out for brevity)- fail to maintain their integrity with me. The parent does not demand the child love them on the parents own terms.....nor does the parent demand that the child accept their love in whatever way the parent deems appropriate. Nor would the parent punish the child for failing to adhere to either of those two arrangements above. I find it more than a little bit horrific that you can equate being drenched in the blood of another -for your own inequity- as love, or salvation. Understand?

I'll repeat -If the blood of christ could "save" me...I'd rather not be saved. It sounds, to me, like the blood of christ is more appropriately damnation- condemnation for having willingly accepted - and perhaps even praised- the act of scapegoating- as a means to heal your very soul.

Quote:So you fancy yourself as a forward thinker. Not all of us do. So maybe you can tell me how you got from your orginal questions, to the ones you have about Christ dying for sins?

If there was indeed a 'logical progression' then why not logically 'progress' together?

Sure. Someone told me "Christ/God died on the cross for our sins" and I said, "What? That makes no sense!"

(June 5, 2013 at 1:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: This is precisely the reason that all of your analogies about parents -including this one (that I snipped out for brevity)- fail to maintain their integrity with me. The parent does not demand the child love them on the parents own terms.....nor does the parent demand that the child accept their love in whatever way the parent deems appropriate. Nor would the parent punish the child for failing to adhere to either of those two arrangements above. I find it more than a little bit horrific that you can equate being drenched in the blood of another -for your own inequity- as love, or salvation. Understand?

I'll repeat -If the blood of christ could "save" me...I'd rather not be saved. It sounds, to me, like the blood of christ is more appropriately damnation- condemnation for having willingly accepted - and perhaps even praised- the act of scapegoating- as a means to heal your very soul.

"It sounds to me"...

Couldn't I just say the same? Christ, [It sounds to me] is the perfect way to save my soul.

You in turn, haven't explained why this wouldn't be the best way for [a] God to show His love for us? Just that it; "sounds like scapegoating".

I gave you [my personal logical] explanations...which frankly means nothing to you. As a public forum Atheist... I don't blame you for not admitting sounds logical.

The only positive thing that you've said is that; "you acknowledge my personal experience". And I've confirmed that I'm not here to save you, or bring you to God."....

So, we are at a crossroads..... as to what's the point of me sharing my experiences? Only to be shot down constantly, just for no other reason but sharing? We're just talking...and unemtionally on my part I might add.

As I mentioned previously, the brain uses deduction, the spirit (ghosts!) addition.

In a nutshell? You aren't interested in adding anything to your thinking, and I'm not interested in subtracting a thing from my beliefs!

So the score will always be ZERO...unless one of us concedes.

(June 3, 2013 at 10:25 pm)Zarith Wrote: If any 1 person's sins are grievous enough to warrant an eternity in hell, how does someone else 'pay for' the sins of everybody without themselves spending an eternity in hell?

Mathematically, I suppose I'd say Creator>>Creation

(June 5, 2013 at 2:16 pm)ronedee Wrote: "It sounds to me"...

Couldn't I just say the same? Christ, [It sounds to me] is the perfect way to save my soul.

You in turn, haven't explained why this wouldn't be the best way for [a] God to show His love for us? Just that it; "sounds like scapegoating".

To be blunt, I don't normally expect to have to explain why I feel scapegoating is abhorrent - nor should I have to...as I'm not the one claiming that it grants redemption or is an expression of love. I'm merely disagreeing with you. We could explore all the reasons that I don't sign on with scapegoating (not that we haven't already addressed some of them) if you like. Ultimately, if you don't find scapegoating to be morally abhorrent that's your business..we'd just have an irreconcilable difference of opinion on the matter - what is not a difference of opinion is that regardless of whether either of us positively or negatively values said scapegoating no one has managed to explain -how it works-...-if it works-...I've already mentioned that I don't care whether or not it happened...so that should be a load off your chest. You felt like giving your opinion on the act without substantiating it...so I gave you my own in return. That's all.

Quote:I gave you [my personal logical] explanations...which frankly means nothing to you. As a public forum Atheist... I don't blame you for not admitting sounds logical.

Kindly point to anything "logical"......take your time.

Quote:So, we are at a crossroads..... as to what's the point of me sharing my experiences? Only to be shot down constantly, just for no other reason but sharing? We're just talking...and unemtionally on my part I might add.

You keep capitalizing the word love, and following it up with exclamation marks....I'd say you're speaking -very emotionally - I even responded in kind. We have a differing opinion on love - but I don't think that you shouldn't be able to tell me about it...or that when you tell me about -your love- it degrades -my experience- of the same in any way. Nor would I expect my opinions on what is or is not love should have some effect on how you experience it.

Quote:As I mentioned previously, the brain uses deduction, the spirit (ghosts!) addition.

I'd just like to know what it added to you...this is the second time I've asked the question...so the comment that follows seems to be a very inaccurate assessment of our situation Ron.

Quote:In a nutshell? You aren't interested in adding anything to your thinking, and I'm not interested in subtracting a thing from my beliefs!

:looks up:

Quote:So the score will always be ZERO...unless one of us concedes.

I didn't realize that we were keeping any scores....

(June 5, 2013 at 2:16 pm)ronedee Wrote: You in turn, haven't explained why this wouldn't be the best way for [a] God to show His love for us?

I can think of dozens of better ways for a god to show its love for us, like eradicating all disease, enough food growing on the planet for everyone to eat, naturally-occurring beer fountains, making donuts make us lose weight, and naked Fridays (after making everyone look sexy, naturally).