(June 18, 2013 at 2:33 pm)ideologue08 Wrote: I'm talking about human beings, I mean they were talking about Hitler, even if Hitler was a Christian, what does that prove? That 'Christianity' is capable of evil? What does that even mean? Surely a more accurate term is "Christians are capable of evil", that's why it's confusing. The ideology itself cannot kill anything, it's the followers that do it.

I don't think she was saying that the ideology does those things, but that it provides the justification or motivation for it. Or that some variants do.

(June 18, 2013 at 2:50 pm)ideologue08 Wrote:

(June 18, 2013 at 2:45 pm)apophenia Wrote: My point being that Hitler having and being motivated by other things besides Christian beliefs and aims does not preclude him as also having been motivated by Christian ones.

That's fine and dandy but then you went on to say: Christianity... is quite compatible with, and even consonant with, many motivations which result in palpable evil.

Now, when you say this, are you referring to Christians, or the actual religion Christianity? The former is obviously is true, as with any other group, but if you're arguing the latter, then you'd have to bring some scriptural evidence or a verdict by the papacy/clergy etc. because that's what the religion is based upon. You cannot use Hitler to argue that the actual religion is compatible with "palpable evil", whatever that means. Evil, of course, isn't objectively defined.

This is in and of itself false, and was addressed by my reference to No True Scotsman arguments, as well as about specific viewpoints as to what Christianity in particular is. To cut to the chase, I was hinting at a larger discussion, which, in addition to being far beyond the scope of this thread, is not one about which I have formed definite conclusions. The fact of the matter is that people are influenced and motivated by ideas, and Christianity, beyond specific interpretations of it, is no exception. Beyond that, I don't care to involve myself in further discussion as the issues involved are far broader and more diverse than I suspect you even imagine.

(June 18, 2013 at 1:31 am)Polaris Wrote: Hitler did have a history with the Church, but I see it not that he believed, but that he used the beliefs of the Christian majority in Germany to achieve his own goals...

It's possible that Hitler was only pretending to be a Christian. Who knows what was actually in his mind and he wouldn't be the first dictator who saw religion as "useful". That goes all the way back to that ancient Greek philosopher who noted as much.

That said, Hitler built upon Christianity to create the Holocaust. Do you think he just invented antisemitism? Or spontaneously created a culture that persecuted gays? Looking at all his victims, the Jews, the gays, the Gypsies. These were all people Christianity had persecuted for centuries. "Paul" himself wrote antisemetic and antigay screeds that were canonized in the NT.

The Nazi Holocaust was the culmination of 2000 years of Christian hate.

(June 18, 2013 at 10:03 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(June 18, 2013 at 1:31 am)Polaris Wrote: Hitler did have a history with the Church, but I see it not that he believed, but that he used the beliefs of the Christian majority in Germany to achieve his own goals...

It's possible that Hitler was only pretending to be a Christian. Who knows what was actually in his mind and he wouldn't be the first dictator who saw religion as "useful". That goes all the way back to that ancient Greek philosopher who noted as much.

That said, Hitler built upon Christianity to create the Holocaust. Do you think he just invented antisemitism? Or spontaneously created a culture that persecuted gays? Looking at all his victims, the Jews, the gays, the Gypsies. These were all people Christianity had persecuted for centuries. "Paul" himself wrote antisemetic and antigay screeds that were canonized in the NT.

The Nazi Holocaust was the culmination of 2000 years of Christian hate.

Those views date back to the time of Martin Luther...Hitler just built upon the hatred to create a scapegoat.

Paul was actually quite supportive of the Jewish...he was only mad at those who had killed Jesus and who had constantly been thwarting the Christian cult from reaching out to the non-Jewish community. This was from 1 Thessalonians.

On the anti-gay creeds, Paul grouped them with all other sin...Republican Christians in America just like to single out specific sins and ignore the rest....

(June 18, 2013 at 11:04 pm)Polaris Wrote: Those views date back to the time of Martin Luther...Hitler just built upon the hatred to create a scapegoat.

Such a rational hate inciting religion you have there, I have to say..

Polaris Wrote:Paul was actually quite supportive of the Jewish...he was only mad at those who had killed Jesus and who had constantly been thwarting the Christian cult from reaching out to the non-Jewish community. This was from 1 Thessalonians.

So..pretty much every Jew who denied Christ. Pretty big pool of people to condemn. I don't know why you're contending that there's any question as to where Hitler got the idea from in the first place

Polaris Wrote:On the anti-gay creeds, Paul grouped them with all other sin...Republican Christians in America just like to single out specific sins and ignore the rest....

Yeah Paul was a real testament to your faith, wasn't he? Bigot.
Don't know why you pick on Christian Americans when we're talking European indoctrination but OK

It is actually quite sociopathic in my eyes that you are aware of the shortcomings of Paul and your religion, yet are sitting here defending your Creed so blazee blazee.

(June 19, 2013 at 12:05 am)missluckie26 Wrote: I don't know why you're contending that there's any question as to where Hitler got the idea from in the first place

Yeh it's nothing to do with racism/ fear of a foreign culture and commercially successful immigrants stealing all of the jobs.

.......not really, no.




“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surronded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed.”

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on his personal Christian feelings. Publish

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That doesn't add anything to you're argument Missy. In the UK and Europe today racists don't play the religion card because it isn't popular and no one would fall for it. Difference was back then Christianity was more popular. Today racists have to find other excuses to justify their hatred. Though no doubt some will still clutch at these straws.

Christianity was more popular back then? I dunno about that. Stats or it didn't happen. Maybe more devout, I could go with that but that only bolsters my argument don't ya think?
Face it, secularism has been a defining cultural influence on history since WW2. Minus the George Bush mishap

I'm really getting tired of self proclaimed Christians that know fuck all about their own theology...

(June 18, 2013 at 11:04 pm)Polaris Wrote: Those views date back to the time of Martin Luther...Hitler just built upon the hatred to create a scapegoat.

Dial back the controls of your fuck-tardis at least 1500 years more to find the origins of anti-semitic thought.

Quote:Paul was actually quite supportive of the Jewish...he was only mad at those who had killed Jesus and who had constantly been thwarting the Christian cult from reaching out to the non-Jewish community. This was from 1 Thessalonians.

What a load of ignorant Christian interpretive bullshit. Paul initially courted Jews, but they rejected his message (your sacred scriptures are very clear about this). Care to share with us why? Clue...it has 'something' to do with the fact the Jesus was put up for the weekend, but has nothing to do with your baseless assertion that Paul was mad at Jews for the deed.

Why again is it that an atheist has to take you god-botherers to school regarding your own theology?