(December 7, 2013 at 4:54 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote: Zionism is a movement that recognizes the Jewish right to self-determination & the historic secular links the Jews have to their homeland. So answer this anti-Zionists; why do you hate the Jews?

Well, I think it boils down to the fact that in order for that to happen, Palestinians who were living there had to be moved from the ancestral land they shared with the Jews to somewhere else.

It does not help that Israel has committed some very unconscionable acts. That said, many Anti-Zionists do tend to ignore the fact that the Palestinians do the same thing. Of course, I tend to see that it'll always wind up evening out; for every Palestinian suicide bombing, there's always some clusterfuck in someplace like Lebanon, and every time Israel bulldozes civilians, Hamas gets closer in their genocidal aims. Seriously, it's like Black Spy vs. White Spy over there.

Anti-Zionists do tend to ignore the fact that the Palestinians do the same thing.

yeah but who started it in 1948

(December 7, 2013 at 8:36 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote:

(December 7, 2013 at 7:10 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Bollocks. The "Jews" lost any right to Palestine when the Romans evicted them in the aftermath of the bar Kochba revolt. Please don't give me this happy horseshit about fucking "god" giving them the land. If ole yhwh gave a flying fuck (or if he existed) he would have stopped the Romans from evicting them instead of having to rely on the fucking UN to steal Arab land.

I'm an atheist, so I'm not going to tell you about god giving them their land, but I will tell you about the various secular reasons that it is their land. First, someone forcibly evicting you from your land does not give them the right to it. Second; how dare you deny a people who have suffered genocide the right to have a homeland where they can be safe! Third, the Arabs are totally primitive racist savages & land thieves, you cannot steal from a thief.

A 2000 year-old land claim based on a book of myths is hardly justification.

And your anti-Arab diatribe is pretty telling. Your bigotry does not defend Zionism.

(December 10, 2013 at 10:33 am)Chas Wrote:

(December 7, 2013 at 8:36 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote: I'm an atheist, so I'm not going to tell you about god giving them their land, but I will tell you about the various secular reasons that it is their land. First, someone forcibly evicting you from your land does not give them the right to it. Second; how dare you deny a people who have suffered genocide the right to have a homeland where they can be safe! Third, the Arabs are totally primitive racist savages & land thieves, you cannot steal from a thief.

A 2000 year-old land claim based on a book of myths is hardly justification.

And you anti-Arab diatribe is pretty telling. Your bigotry does not defend Zionism.

indeed...

(December 8, 2013 at 9:37 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote:

(December 8, 2013 at 8:47 pm)MarxRaptor Wrote: Also, Islam is not a race.

Yes it is, you dumbshit!

By the definitions of "race" that I cited earlier, adherence to Islam qualifies it as a race!

No, it's not. Your broad reading of the definition is so broad as to be useless. The list of characteristics is not "if it's A or B or C ... then it's Z", it is an illustrative list of possible shared characteristics of a race.

By your definition, Christianity is a race, Trekkies are a race.

Did anyone else see the documentary The Gatekeepers?

It's interviews with many former heads of Shin Bet about the Israel-Palestine problem, and I watched it with my mouth hanging open for nearly the entire film, since these guys explicitly damn their own country and its tactics. I recommend it.

(December 10, 2013 at 11:05 am)Zazzy Wrote: Did anyone else see the documentary The Gatekeepers?

It's interviews with many former heads of Shin Bet about the Israel-Palestine problem, and I watched it with my mouth hanging open for nearly the entire film, since these guys explicitly damn their own country and its tactics. I recommend it.

I saw that. I actually agree with a lot of what they said. I was an anti-Zionist at the time. The film was one of the things that pushed me in the Zionist direction.

(December 10, 2013 at 11:56 am)MarxRaptor Wrote:

(December 10, 2013 at 11:05 am)Zazzy Wrote: Did anyone else see the documentary The Gatekeepers?

It's interviews with many former heads of Shin Bet about the Israel-Palestine problem, and I watched it with my mouth hanging open for nearly the entire film, since these guys explicitly damn their own country and its tactics. I recommend it.

I saw that. I actually agree with a lot of what they said. I was an anti-Zionist at the time. The film was one of the things that pushed me in the Zionist direction.

Umm. Did you miss the point of the movie? It's an indictment of Zionism.

(December 10, 2013 at 11:57 am)Zazzy Wrote:

(December 10, 2013 at 11:56 am)MarxRaptor Wrote: I saw that. I actually agree with a lot of what they said. I was an anti-Zionist at the time. The film was one of the things that pushed me in the Zionist direction.

Umm. Did you miss the point of the movie? It's an indictment of Zionism.

I'm quite sure you missed the point. It was pretty even-handed & really humanized the Jews.

(December 10, 2013 at 11:59 am)MarxRaptor Wrote:

(December 10, 2013 at 11:57 am)Zazzy Wrote: Umm. Did you miss the point of the movie? It's an indictment of Zionism.

I'm quite sure you missed the point. It was pretty even-handed & really humanized the Jews.

What a weird response, since that's not just my opinion, but the opinion of a boatload of Israelis and film critics : eg: this ", this, this, and many, many more.

It's distressing that Jews needed "humanizing" for you, but if the movie served that purpose for you, terrific.