(December 10, 2013 at 9:53 am)Zazzy Wrote: 1.) If the word "no" is said, at any point, there is no consent.
2.) If she's incapacitated, there's no consent, even if she seemed willing earlier.

No gray area.

Yeah, I've never really understood why consent is considered this huge mystery by some. I'm a kinky guy, a lot of my time with women (and men) have involved rope and gags, sometimes play-pleading to stop, to really muddy the waters, and I've never once so much as been confused about when I need to stop, safeword or no.

It's just... there is no point at which this is a convoluted issue.

I contributed to this thread with every intention of participating, but it's too sad for me and I'm bowing out. Zazzy's doing a great job.

(December 10, 2013 at 11:43 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote:

(December 10, 2013 at 11:26 am)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: How. Much they alter the odds is a matter of debate, and I think there are things that can alter the odds significantly. However anyone saying it is the victims faults is a pig, plain and simple. It is not the women's fault and nor should she think like that. And as for martial rape there is something you can do about that, expose Muslim marriage laws, as they are responsible for much of that (not all) of that phenomena. I also think that is the most disgusting form of rape besides pedophilia.

The reason I say rape cannot be prevented by the potential victim is because you never know when these things will happen. Yes you can make institutional changes like education, abolishing child marriage, clearing up what imams are telling muslims about marriage and sex, but those are not things that a woman can do to keep herself safe on a day to day basis. I'm arguing that on that basis there's almost nothing that makes it significant. I am willing to concede that moving to a neighbourhood/country with lower rape stats will better your chances (if you can), but I can't think of anything else.

Have a look at this website: http://projectunbreakable.tumblr.com/

It really shows how often rape is committed by someone you know. I almost feel like the type where you get grabbed on a road is the minority. Mostly you know them. They have access to you. You even trust them. What can an individual do to protect themselves from so many unknowns?

You may not like this answer, but I say bear mace will go a long way. Some tries to rape, mace him.
However in truth I agree with the essence of what you say, you will never eliminate the crime completely. I just feel that when women act as if there is nothing they can do to help reduce risk that leaves them powerless even though it is not true.

---

(December 10, 2013 at 12:27 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I contributed to this thread with every intention of participating, but it's too sad for me and I'm bowing out. Zazzy's doing a great job.

Yeah, but these I sometimes think are the important talks. I for one welcome your input.

(December 10, 2013 at 12:57 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:

(December 10, 2013 at 11:43 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: The reason I say rape cannot be prevented by the potential victim is because you never know when these things will happen. Yes you can make institutional changes like education, abolishing child marriage, clearing up what imams are telling muslims about marriage and sex, but those are not things that a woman can do to keep herself safe on a day to day basis. I'm arguing that on that basis there's almost nothing that makes it significant. I am willing to concede that moving to a neighbourhood/country with lower rape stats will better your chances (if you can), but I can't think of anything else.

Have a look at this website: http://projectunbreakable.tumblr.com/

It really shows how often rape is committed by someone you know. I almost feel like the type where you get grabbed on a road is the minority. Mostly you know them. They have access to you. You even trust them. What can an individual do to protect themselves from so many unknowns?

You may not like this answer, but I say bear mace will go a long way. Some tries to rape, mace him.
However in truth I agree with the essence of what you say, you will never eliminate the crime completely. I just feel that when women act as if there is nothing they can do to help reduce risk that leaves them powerless even though it is not true.

Well let's think about this. Where do you put the mace? Handbag? Backpack? Zipped? When do you pull it out? Before or after the person attacks before or after they throw your bag away before or after they knock it out of your hand? What about if you were home? Where is the bear mace supposed to go? One in each room? One in each drawer?

My point is a million scenarios could happen. You could jab someone in the eye with your finger. Or he could break your finger. You could mace him, or he could mace you.

In other words you're welcome to try, but I really believe it's naive to think that it's going to save you. It could and it could not.

The issue with idea that individual women can prevent rape is not just the tendency to cause shifting of blame, but that it's fundamentally a flawed idea that so many in our society subscribes to that I believe makes people complacent in trying to actually prevent rape with legitimate methods.

Btw, what do you mean women act as if nothing they can do will help reduce the risk? What kinds of actions fall under this umbrella?

(December 10, 2013 at 1:09 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote:

(December 10, 2013 at 12:57 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: You may not like this answer, but I say bear mace will go a long way. Some tries to rape, mace him.
However in truth I agree with the essence of what you say, you will never eliminate the crime completely. I just feel that when women act as if there is nothing they can do to help reduce risk that leaves them powerless even though it is not true.

Well let's think about this. Where do you put the mace? Handbag? Backpack? Zipped? When do you pull it out? Before or after the person attacks before or after they throw your bag away before or after they knock it out of your hand? What about if you were home? Where is the bear mace supposed to go? One in each room? One in each drawer?

My point is a million scenarios could happen. You could jab someone in the eye with your finger. Or he could break your finger. You could mace him, or he could mace you.

In other words you're welcome to try, but I really believe it's naive to think that it's going to save you. It could and it could not.

The issue with idea that individual women can prevent rape is not just the tendency to cause shifting of blame, but that it's fundamentally a flawed idea that so many in our society subscribes to that I believe makes people complacent in trying to actually prevent rape with legitimate methods.

Btw, what do you mean women act as if nothing they can do will help reduce the risk? What kinds of actions fall under this umbrella?

So because a million scenarios could happen you should not do in your power to try to prevent them? That's what I advocate,doing what is in your power to protect your self. Obviously there are a million scenarios that could happen where you would not be successful, that doesn't mean something like bear mace won't increase your chances of being successful at defending yourself.
Let me say it like this, why do you put a lock on your door someone could pick a lock?
BTW the sort of behavior that fall into the category you ask of is simple. You identify which behaviours increase your chances of becoming a victim and avoid them. Of the ones I listed earlier, you should avoid those anyway.

Nobody is saying 'do nothing' regarding cautiousness. What they are saying is - focusing primarily on the victims and potential victims of rape as the ones to prevent such acts against them is short-sighted and unhelpful.

(December 10, 2013 at 4:22 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: Nobody is saying 'do nothing' regarding cautiousness. What they are saying is - focusing primarily on the victims and potential victims of rape as the ones to prevent such acts against them is short-sighted and unhelpful.

Actually from where I'm standing it looks like you can't even bring it up without people going nuts. Im not even proposing we focus on victims as the areas where rape is most prevelant need huge reforms in culture

Because it's patronizing to think people do not know to take precautions when they are told to all the damn time by everyone around them for everything. At least, this is how you come across.

(December 10, 2013 at 5:09 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: Because it's patronizing to think people do not know to take precautions when they are told to all the damn time by everyone around them for everything. At least, this is how you come across.

Well I'm not trying to be patronizing at all. Isn't it a bit of a stretch to think that everyone is told this all the time? Or better yet how does it affect young men when they know women are told that men are out to rape them all time?

I know you do not intend to. Some people look passed intentions. But people are told a lot about precautions. Walk down a hall of a dorm or school hall, sit in on a health class in late middle school/early highschool in America, listen to conversations that mothers have regarding the subject with their daughters versus sons, browse the internet news sites. And I am alright with asking questions about the subject of men feeling like rapists, but how is that a type of rape prevention? And again, I do not think the exclusion of other genders is appropriate.