(April 15, 2014 at 1:12 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Disclaimer: This topic is purely hypothetical, at least as far as I'm concerned. I do not acknowledge that any of the JC story represents genuine historical events, and nothing I write on the subject should be interpreted otherwise. Right, now that's out of the way...

Since we're on the run-up to Easter, I thought - perhaps erroneously - that this might be a subject worth chewing over. It's often been said that xtianity stands or falls on the resurrection; an event (supernatural or otherwise) that could only have happened because the character was tried and condemned by the Roman authorities. Did the Romans have any free will in the matter, given that this 'sacrifice' was supposed to be Yahweh's plan for humanity? If they did, what would have happened to a) the plan and b) xtianity as a religion if they'd either locked him up, let him off with a caution or simply ignored him altogether? Would the magic and the miracles have been enough on their own?

They did not crucify the christ

The christ is NOT a historical figure of any reality - it exists as a MYTH only -created by humans to start still another ho-hum religion.
There is NO EVIDENCE at all that the christ ever actually lived based on the historical record of his supposed time.

Quote:a book that claims bush's talk

Well....sadly they do.

(April 20, 2014 at 7:14 pm)ThomM Wrote: The christ is NOT a historical figure of any reality - it exists as a MYTH only -created by humans to start still another ho-hum religion.
There is NO EVIDENCE at all that the christ ever actually lived based on the historical record of his supposed time.

Stimbo isn't saying that Jesus really lived and was crucified.

(April 15, 2014 at 1:12 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Disclaimer: This topic is purely hypothetical, at least as far as I'm concerned. I do not acknowledge that any of the JC story represents genuine historical events, and nothing I write on the subject should be interpreted otherwise. Right, now that's out of the way...

This means that the discussion is no more about reality than wondering what would have happened in the fictional Harry Potter universe if Snape hadn't fallen in love with Lily Potter.

Absolutely. Searching for an historical JC makes as much sense, and proves just as fruitful, as looking for an historical Darth Vader. The only real difference is non-Star Wars fans don't usually get threatened with fire and pointy metal things simply for not believing the mythology.

(April 21, 2014 at 10:16 am)Stimbo Wrote: Absolutely. Searching for an historical JC makes as much sense, and proves just as fruitful, as looking for an historical Darth Vader. The only real difference is non-Star Wars fans don't usually get threatened with fire and pointy metal things simply for not believing the mythology.

According to the research I've done, an overwhelming majority of historians and related scholars, christian and non-christian, contend that Jesus is a historical person who did exist during the time frame indicated in the bible.

(April 22, 2014 at 11:28 pm)Lek Wrote:

(April 21, 2014 at 10:16 am)Stimbo Wrote: Absolutely. Searching for an historical JC makes as much sense, and proves just as fruitful, as looking for an historical Darth Vader. The only real difference is non-Star Wars fans don't usually get threatened with fire and pointy metal things simply for not believing the mythology.

According to the research I've done, an overwhelming majority of historians and related scholars, christian and non-christian, contend that Jesus is a historical person who did exist during the time frame indicated in the bible.

Well, that's a problem since Jesus and the Christ are mentioned in the Old Testament, which was supposedly written centuries before the New Testament. So maybe those historians are simply making things up?

(April 22, 2014 at 11:48 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(April 22, 2014 at 11:28 pm)Lek Wrote: According to the research I've done, an overwhelming majority of historians and related scholars, christian and non-christian, contend that Jesus is a historical person who did exist during the time frame indicated in the bible.

Well, that's a problem since Jesus and the Christ are mentioned in the Old Testament, which was supposedly written centuries before the New Testament. So maybe those historians are simply making things up?

As far as I can see, the name of Jesus was not mentioned once in the old testament. You'll need to give me a reference on that one.

(April 22, 2014 at 11:28 pm)Lek Wrote:

(April 21, 2014 at 10:16 am)Stimbo Wrote: Absolutely. Searching for an historical JC makes as much sense, and proves just as fruitful, as looking for an historical Darth Vader. The only real difference is non-Star Wars fans don't usually get threatened with fire and pointy metal things simply for not believing the mythology.

According to the research I've done, an overwhelming majority of historians and related scholars, christian and non-christian, contend that Jesus is a historical person who did exist during the time frame indicated in the bible.

You need to do better research. First, strip out the theologians. They are just protecting their livelihood which revolves around convincing dolts that this shit they peddle is real.

(April 23, 2014 at 12:00 am)Lek Wrote:

(April 22, 2014 at 11:48 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Well, that's a problem since Jesus and the Christ are mentioned in the Old Testament, which was supposedly written centuries before the New Testament. So maybe those historians are simply making things up?

As far as I can see, the name of Jesus was not mentioned once in the old testament. You'll need to give me a reference on that one.

I have a load of specific passages so I will give you chapters and verses as well as the links. You might want to remember that the KJV was written to push the Protestant doctrine so it dropped all of those references to Jesus in its revised OT.

1. 1 Samuel 2:10 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
2. 1 Samuel 2:35 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
3. 1 Samuel 16:6 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
4. 1 Samuel 26:11 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
5. 1 Samuel 26:16 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC

6. 1 Samuel 26:23 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
7. 2 Samuel 1:14 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
8. 2 Samuel 1:16 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
9. 2 Samuel 22:51 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
10. 2 Samuel 23:1 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC

11. 2 Chronicles 6:42 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
12. Psalm 2:2 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
13. Psalm 20:6 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
14. Psalm 45:2 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
15. Psalm 84:9 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC

16. Psalm 89:51 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
17. Isaiah 45:1 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
18. Lamentations 4:20 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...on=WYC;DRA
19. Daniel 9:25 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...on=WYC;DRA
20. Daniel 9:26 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?sea...tnumber=51

21. Habukkak 3:13 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...on=WYC;DRA
22. Zechariah 3:8 (WYC) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=WYC
23. Habukkak 3:18 (WYC, DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...on=WYC;DRA
24. Haggai 1:1 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA
25. Haggai 1:14 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA

26. Haggai 2:3 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA
27. Haggai 2:5 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA
28. Zechariah 3:1 (DRA) =http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+3:1&version=DRA
29. Zechariah 3:3 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA
"3 And the Lord shewed me Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord: and Satan stood on his right hand to be his adversary."
30. Zechariah 3:6 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA

31. Zechariah 3:8 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA
32. Zechariah 3:9 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA
33. Zechariah 6:11 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA
34. Sirach 50:27 (CEB) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=CEB
35. Sirach 50:29 (DRA) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=DRA

36. Sirach 51:1 (CEB) = http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=CEB
37. 1 Maccabees 2:55 (DRA) =http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Maccabees+2:55&version=DRA
"55 Jesus, whilst he fulfilled the word, was made ruler in Israel."

Note: If you are not familiar with the Wycliffe Bible it was written in England between 1382-1395. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wycliffe's_Bible

Ok - I did not check them all but perhaps 8-10. There are many references to "christ" which, in jewish terms, only meant "The Anointed One" and would have referred to any king or high priest. ( Among the Romans it would have meant, "the oily guy.")

The one reference to "jesus" was translated "Joshua" in another version and since Yeshua/Yehosuah was basically the same shit it does not mean what you want it to mean. Josephus named over 20 Y'shuas in Antiquities of the Jews. None of them were THAT fucking Yeshua, either.