(April 30, 2014 at 6:14 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(April 30, 2014 at 6:08 pm)truthBtold Wrote: Hhmm. Because it is written in a book, with no proof. R u serious kilic

I especially like the snide remarks about my bravery and martyrdom.

Makes a girl feel special.

Be nice or im gonna cut ur ear off.. what? Hahaahaha

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NO DRINKING AT THE FORUM!!!

(April 30, 2014 at 6:15 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

Quote:Well, you don't know me so you can't speak on my behalf.

Well, I can speak on the behalf of the torturer, that if he is skilled, he can make you believe in anything or force you to say anything that he wants.
Jean of Arc has faced death by fire because she believed that she was chosen by God, and that she would go to heaven if she stood firm and true through the excruciatingly painful punishment she had received.
What do you have to show for?

Quote:To help people and, hopefully, make the world a slightly better place by my presence.

Very nice Something that would help you to withstand torture, eh?

Quote:I chose it for myself.

Well, everybody does that. It is the basis that matters.

People die for their convictions every day, whether that conviction be religious or something else.

Because a person was tortured to death for their religion neither devalues their sacrifice or those who have died for other convictions. Unless, of course, those convictions are in direct conflict with the wellbeing of others.

(April 30, 2014 at 5:43 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(April 30, 2014 at 5:28 pm)pocaracas Wrote: How is anyone going against any god, by simply not believing what other people claim about that god? We also not believe many other people who say similar things about other gods...

If there is a god (or several), then which one(s) am I going against by not believing in it(them)?

What other people claim about him? Who are those people?
You don't deal with them in the afterlife.

Every single shred of "information" about any god that ever has been believed in, here on Earth, has been provided by humans.
Who they were? Beats me... most likely, someone trying to comfort their loved ones, or trying to keep their own mortality at bay...

What afterlife?

(April 30, 2014 at 5:43 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: And well, considering that the God in question requires you to worship him, you would do wise to do so.

I don't know which god you're talking about, but he/she/it/they never required anything from me.
Every single shred of "information" about that god you talk about has come to you through people. PEOPLE!
Every requirement that you perceive to come from that god has come to you through people. People are not the god.
If that information, that requirement is that important, the medium of "information" transmission should never be the fault-ridden people that we see carrying it.

So now tell me.... who's requiring me to do what? and about what?

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(April 30, 2014 at 5:54 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: We were speaking of a hypothetical case of God being real, and you being aware of its existence.

Indeed.... I had forgotten about that... sorry about the disturbance... carry on!

Quote:People die for their convictions every day, whether that conviction be religious or something else.

Because a person was tortured to death for their religion neither devalues their sacrifice or those who have died for other convictions. Unless, of course, those convictions are in direct conflict with the wellbeing of others.

Well, they say that they suffer for their belief in God, something that is beyond everything that is imaginable. What I was trying to tell is what are you ready to die for? Are you ready to die for others, give your life away freely, be a cobblestone in the road to that higher purpose that you profess your conviction in?
I personally do not think that liberal humanism presents anyone with a basis for such a conviction.

Quote:Every single shred of "information" about any god that ever has been believed in, here on Earth, has been provided by humans.
Who they were? Beats me... most likely, someone trying to comfort their loved ones, or trying to keep their own mortality at bay...

What afterlife?

But humans who have been appointed by God. They are not mere men, they are prophets.
And in the case, that God decided not to use an intermediary, but actually stepped forward and told you that he existed, what then?

Quote:I don't know which god you're talking about, but he/she/it/they never required anything from me.
Every single shred of "information" about that god you talk about has come to you through people. PEOPLE!
Every requirement that you perceive to come from that god has come to you through people. People are not the god.
If that information, that requirement is that important, the medium of "information" transmission should never be the fault-ridden people that we see carrying it.

So now tell me.... who's requiring me to do what? and about what?

And I understand, but you need to understand that I'm not talking about that. We're speaking of a hypothetical case here.

(April 30, 2014 at 6:31 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

Quote:People die for their convictions every day, whether that conviction be religious or something else.

Because a person was tortured to death for their religion neither devalues their sacrifice or those who have died for other convictions. Unless, of course, those convictions are in direct conflict with the wellbeing of others.

Well, they say that they suffer for their belief in God, something that is beyond everything that is imaginable. What I was trying to tell is what are you ready to die for? Are you ready to die for others, give your life away freely, be a cobblestone in the road to that higher purpose that you profess your conviction in?
I personally do not think that liberal humanism presents anyone with a basis for such a conviction.

Quote:Every single shred of "information" about any god that ever has been believed in, here on Earth, has been provided by humans.
Who they were? Beats me... most likely, someone trying to comfort their loved ones, or trying to keep their own mortality at bay...

What afterlife?

But humans who have been appointed by God. They are not mere men, they are prophets.
And in the case, that God decided not to use an intermediary, but actually stepped forward and told you that he existed, what then?

Quote:I don't know which god you're talking about, but he/she/it/they never required anything from me.
Every single shred of "information" about that god you talk about has come to you through people. PEOPLE!
Every requirement that you perceive to come from that god has come to you through people. People are not the god.
If that information, that requirement is that important, the medium of "information" transmission should never be the fault-ridden people that we see carrying it.

So now tell me.... who's requiring me to do what? and about what?

And I understand, but you need to understand that I'm not talking about that. We're speaking of a hypothetical case here.

Ooooh.. why didnt u say so...

(April 30, 2014 at 6:15 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Jean of Arc has faced death by fire because she believed that she was chosen by God, and that she would go to heaven if she stood firm and true through the excruciatingly painful punishment she had received.
What do you have to show for?

Joan of Arc was burned because she was a woman who wore pants and cut her hair short. They thought that was cross-dressing and so burned her.

(April 30, 2014 at 7:11 pm)Coffee Jesus Wrote:

(April 30, 2014 at 6:15 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Jean of Arc has faced death by fire because she believed that she was chosen by God, and that she would go to heaven if she stood firm and true through the excruciatingly painful punishment she had received.
What do you have to show for?

Joan of Arc was burned because she was a woman who wore pants and cut her hair short. They thought that was cross-dressing and so burned her.

And she refused to budge, even though she would be pardoned if she had turned from her ways, she'd spend the rest of her days in a monastary as a nun, but no, she chose the path of martyrdom. Now she has been canonized as a saint by the catholic church.

(April 30, 2014 at 6:31 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

Quote:Every single shred of "information" about any god that ever has been believed in, here on Earth, has been provided by humans.
Who they were? Beats me... most likely, someone trying to comfort their loved ones, or trying to keep their own mortality at bay...

What afterlife?

But humans who have been appointed by God. They are not mere men, they are prophets.
And in the case, that God decided not to use an intermediary, but actually stepped forward and told you that he existed, what then?

Ok, I got it... Let's operate under the hypothetical existence of a loving god.
In such a case, it would have made sure that everyone is fully aware of its existence and of its loving nature.
How would such a god ensure that?...
Would he choose a few people who would then have to pass on the message?... the so called prophets?
Or would he do it himself, given that, you know, he sort of loves everyone and can actually do it?
Or... add any other option you like.


Which is the one operating on our known world?

(April 30, 2014 at 6:31 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

Quote:People die for their convictions every day, whether that conviction be religious or something else.

Because a person was tortured to death for their religion neither devalues their sacrifice or those who have died for other convictions. Unless, of course, those convictions are in direct conflict with the wellbeing of others.

Well, they say that they suffer for their belief in God, something that is beyond everything that is imaginable. What I was trying to tell is what are you ready to die for? Are you ready to die for others, give your life away freely, be a cobblestone in the road to that higher purpose that you profess your conviction in?
I personally do not think that liberal humanism presents anyone with a basis for such a conviction.

Quote:Every single shred of "information" about any god that ever has been believed in, here on Earth, has been provided by humans.
Who they were? Beats me... most likely, someone trying to comfort their loved ones, or trying to keep their own mortality at bay...

What afterlife?

But humans who have been appointed by God. They are not mere men, they are prophets.
And in the case, that God decided not to use an intermediary, but actually stepped forward and told you that he existed, what then?

Quote:I don't know which god you're talking about, but he/she/it/they never required anything from me.
Every single shred of "information" about that god you talk about has come to you through people. PEOPLE!
Every requirement that you perceive to come from that god has come to you through people. People are not the god.
If that information, that requirement is that important, the medium of "information" transmission should never be the fault-ridden people that we see carrying it.

So now tell me.... who's requiring me to do what? and about what?

And I understand, but you need to understand that I'm not talking about that. We're speaking of a hypothetical case here.

Would I sacrificed myself for my convictions? I've already answered that when I stated I don't know until the time comes. No one can know for certain. Often the most gung-ho are the first to back down.

For every religious martyr who died for their cause famously, how many people backed down from their convictions when faced with the reality of their situation?

As for torture. Yes, a "good" torturer can get anyone to admit/profess/claim anything under duress. If someone tortured me to make me worship their god I'd likely end up telling him I do just to make the pain stop. That doesn't mean I actually started worshipping it and an all powerful deity would know that.

Finally, Joan of Arc and her canonisation. That's hardly convincing. Yes, she died in agony in the flames, as did many under the dubious care of the Catholic Church. Those who died in their fires, not part of their cause, were "heretics", while others who died in their cause are "saints" and "martyrs". Thousands of kamikaze pilots died believing their cause was just and that their emperor was divine. Does that make the divinity of the emperor real?

And it seems that the criteria for sainthood isn't what it used to be. With the latest two, we have to ask just how many of these saints have been made so for political reasons?

(April 30, 2014 at 5:43 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: And well, considering that the God in question requires you to worship him, you would do wise to do so.

If it is that important to him, he can make the requirement clear. If it's such a non-factor that he doesn't make it clear enough that no religion has managed to convince a majority of humanity, then I'm thinking that he either doesn't care, or doesn't exist. That he makes no effort whatsoever to show himself leads me to the latter as the most reasonable assumption.

After all, anyone who warns us about the afterlife is in disagreement with a lot of people on many different levels and has dismissed many other claims, or held them to a far higher standard of evidence than their own. I just happen to have dismissed one more god than most theists have.

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(April 30, 2014 at 5:50 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Oh, you're so brave. I'm sure you're going to be as brave when you're facing the perils of hell, yes? I'm sure that you'd not be able to withstand even the most mild forms of human torturing methods, let alone face the fires of hell.

Most people have a pretty low pain threshold, so it's entirely possible that someone could get me to claim a lot of things under sufficient duress. As it happens, many religions have used such threats --and torture-- as a way of coercing people into supporting them, or at least withdrawing opposition. Browsing a list of the devices used during the middle ages would give anyone pause.

I think it's telling that certain gods might have to use torture to get people to follow them. And it would be very scary if they did exist, because we would know that they were quite willing to apply it, possibly even to those who were faithful, just because they felt like it. Maybe hell isn't an eternity spent in a fiery pit. Maybe hell is an eternity spent in heaven, constantly looking over your shoulder.