Ah, I see. The real world.. or do you mean your world, sir? In one scenario you're a monster, in the other you build an impossibly high bar to jump for your kid.

Eta: No one is shocked that it turned out like this.

Way to make the whole thread about you, Heywood. But then, I've noticed you like to do that. Why not just offer your opinion and let the poster decide for himself what advice works best for him?

You can speak from your own experience, and no one else's. Newsflash: You don't get to decide what's best for everyone.

Oh, yeah -- you're a Xtian. No wonder you think you can.

(June 3, 2014 at 10:52 pm)Sejanus Wrote: Since you blatantly glossed over my point in my earlier post, I reiterate; he only called him a coward after his dad refused to address his argument.

You mean the argument that contained insults and ridicule directed at the father and his beliefs?

If I was the father, I tell my son to fuck off too. If the kid wants to debate, that's fine I'm open. But I'm not going to sit there and let him insult and ridicule me under the guise of reasoned argument or debate.

The father is demanding the son treat him with respect. The son needs to learn to do the same. Once they each give each other respect, a dialogue can happen.

---

(June 3, 2014 at 10:57 pm)Raeven Wrote: Way to make the whole thread about you, Heywood. But then, I've noticed you like to do that. Why not just offer your opinion and let the poster decide for himself what advice works best for him?

You can speak from your own experience, and no one else's. Newsflash: You don't get to decide what's best for everyone.

Oh, yeah -- you're a Xtian. No wonder you think you can.

The OP can do whatever he wants....including listen to the advice of the assholes telling him he should just write off having a relationship with his father.

(June 3, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 10:52 pm)Sejanus Wrote: Since you blatantly glossed over my point in my earlier post, I reiterate; he only called him a coward after his dad refused to address his argument.

You mean the argument that contained insults and ridicule directed at the father and his beliefs?

If I was the father, I tell my son to fuck off too. If the kid wants to debate, that's fine I'm open. But I'm not going to sit there and let him insult and ridicule me under the guise of reasoned argument or debate.

The father is demanding the son treat him with respect. The son needs to learn to do the same. Once they each give each other respect, a dialogue can happen.

You have this uncanny ability, Heywood, of ignoring everything except what you want to hear. You should get that looked at. It can't be good for your mental health.
Here is exactly where I explained why his criticism of his dad's beliefs were justified;

(June 3, 2014 at 10:52 pm)Sejanus Wrote: ...the OP is justified in ridiculing his dad's beliefs, because
1. His dad is only willing to have a relationship with the OP if the OP becomes a Mormon again. It's blackmail.
2. His dad already indoctrinated him into something he now abhors at birth. You know, without his consent. And is now seeking to again.

(June 3, 2014 at 11:15 pm)Sejanus Wrote:

(June 3, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Heywood Wrote: You mean the argument that contained insults and ridicule directed at the father and his beliefs?

If I was the father, I tell my son to fuck off too. If the kid wants to debate, that's fine I'm open. But I'm not going to sit there and let him insult and ridicule me under the guise of reasoned argument or debate.

The father is demanding the son treat him with respect. The son needs to learn to do the same. Once they each give each other respect, a dialogue can happen.

You have this uncanny ability, Heywood, of ignoring everything except what you want to hear. You should get that looked at. It can't be good for your mental health.
Here is exactly where I explained why his criticism of his dad's beliefs were justified;

(June 3, 2014 at 10:52 pm)Sejanus Wrote: ...the OP is justified in ridiculing his dad's beliefs, because
1. His dad is only willing to have a relationship with the OP if the OP becomes a Mormon again. It's blackmail.
2. His dad already indoctrinated him into something he now abhors at birth. You know, without his consent. And is now seeking to again.

I dismissed your argument because you haven't shown either of these to be true. You asserted something and expected that I would find your assertion to be a persuasive argument.....I do not....so I simply ignored it.

Elcon, I am sorry you have to deal with this. It sounds like a really tough situation, and I know it is emotionally taxing.

I know what it's like with the passive aggressive (or even aggressive) religious parent. I have one, and she drops little religio-nuggets in front of me all the time. I try my hardest not to take the bait, not to respond, not to shove it back in her face. My mother may not care so much, but my relationship with her and my father is more important to me than proving them wrong or even trying to get them to understand fully. My dad does a lot better with it. But I love them, and I'd do anything for them, even if that means not telling them how I really think/feel. That's for me, anyways. If I did that it would be for me to feel better about things. But I don't owe them my mind. My mind is my own, not owned by anyone. I make boundaries with my parents, and every now and again I have to enforce those boundaries by being assertive or staunchly logical, but I don't get aggressive.

I agree with almost everything you said. Challenge the terrible assertions. Stick up for yourself when you are being disrespected. But don't stoop. Calling your father a coward, even if true, doesn't help anything. I win EVERY time with my mom by taking the high road. I gain personal integrity and respect from her by being steadfast in being as good a person as I can be, being as compassionate and helpful as I can be. She sees this and has to cope with the cognitive dissonance from what her preconceived notions of what an atheist is and what I AM. I can't change my mom's mind and force her to respect me. She can though, and the only thing I can do to influence that is to be me.

It has taken time, but I have a fantastic relationship with her. I call her every Sunday, and her and my father are excellent sources of love and support for me. If I wanted to challenge every time they said something religious or stupid, I could ruin it all in the name of hubris, but it's way more important to me to maintain.

All this being said, your dad went out of his way to challenge and insult you here, and he deserved to be set in place. I would, in the future, set him in his place from a place of less emotion. With cold, hard rationality, you win every time.

(June 3, 2014 at 11:25 pm)Heywood Wrote: I dismissed your argument because you haven't shown either of these to be true. You asserted something and expected that I would find your assertion to be a persuasive argument.....I do not....so I simply ignored it.

Bullshit. Read the fucking OP. His dad clearly says

"We would love to have had you at the temple with us. Im sorry that you feel that you have to publicly shame your family on Facebook. We still love you and you can always return. His arms are outstretched still. The last thing you mentioned was guilt.... If there is so much guilt, it's because you know you are doing something you should not... And you need to understand the atonement. It covers everything. "

and

"If you are a representation of an atheist, then I want nothing to do with it."

Come back to Mormonism, then we'll accept you. How the fuck is that not blackmail?

Your response is unsurprising, being a pathological liar is the status quo for a theist.

(June 3, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Heywood Wrote: It wouldn't surprise me one bit if you, like the OP, respond to your father by trying hurt him back instead of simply demanding respect.

I told him to grow the fuck up and act like a dad if he wants me to treat him like one.

And he did, so I do.

My dad grew up constantly demanding my respect, out of this strange idea that giving me half of my chromosomes somehow entitled him to it.

Oh I see. Heywood thinks we evil atheists are just giving hateful advice just to be assholes! He has no idea we have merely identified an abuser and counseled the victim to protect themselves.

(June 3, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Heywood Wrote: The OP can do whatever he wants....including listen to the advice of the assholes telling him he should just write off having a relationship with his father.

If the OP wanted to cut ties with his father (which he doesn't), he should have that right.