Do you think I'm not on your side here Brian?

(June 24, 2014 at 7:13 am)fr0d0 Wrote: So if I saw a large weight plummeting down onto you, I could choose to push you out of the way or let you die. Neither would be immoral because it's not me killing you.

In the case of the trolley then, none of the acts are immoral, because it's not me that's killing you.

You're changing the premises of the dilemma, here... tss tss tss

(June 24, 2014 at 8:02 am)Irrational Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 7:45 am)fr0d0 Wrote: But a human standard that is completely unreliable?

Depends on the country you're in.

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(June 24, 2014 at 8:01 am)Rhythm Wrote: I prefer abrasive.

You know, in reading the two of you's back and forth it's occurred to me that perhaps considering morality as standard based and law as outcome based would tease apart any issues where entanglement of the two makes it seem like two contradictory statements could be equally valid. A problem of composition, non overlapping and all that.

I think this exchange should be moved to another thread, what do you say?

This should be about abortion, not morality in general

Um no, how humans come to the conclusions they make affect every decision they make and how they view the world so you cant say that one topic is more important than another topic. I brought up morality because the anti abortion side has based that position on their own morality.

This pushing for a utopia in a diverse and complex species is exactly what makes us divided, and not just on the issue of abortion.

This is the same problem I have with utopia vegans and vegetarians who think it is possible to get 7 billion humans to never eat any sort of other animal life despite our omnivore evolution.

I think everyone should want to improve the human condition, but trying to push a personal utopia on a complex diverse species is absurd.

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(June 24, 2014 at 8:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Do you think I'm not on your side here Brian?

Sides is not the issue. Bad use of logic is.

If one is going to call abortion murder, then be logically consistent about it. A girl/women to get one has to have a pre meditated thought to even want one. Then she has to act on that thought and seek out a doctor. The doctor is not the only person involved in that act.

When two guys rob someone for their wallet, one guy might come up with the idea, they both go along with it, one ends up murdering the victim. Most of the time in law, even if one does not have the intent of murder, BOTH will be charged with murder.

Now again, be logically consistent and answer me this right now. WHAT SHOULD BE THE PUNISHMENT FOR THE GIRL/WOMAN?

Arthur, I was wondering if you had thought as far as to how we will stop the backyard butchers once we change the laws and stop the real practitioners from performing abortions?
Do you think forcing women to do this would be a morally responsible thing to do?

(June 24, 2014 at 8:36 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 7:13 am)fr0d0 Wrote: So if I saw a large weight plummeting down onto you, I could choose to push you out of the way or let you die. Neither would be immoral because it's not me killing you.

In the case of the trolley then, none of the acts are immoral, because it's not me that's killing you.

You're changing the premises of the dilemma, here... tss tss tss

How?

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(June 24, 2014 at 8:37 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 8:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Do you think I'm not on your side here Brian?

Sides is not the issue. Bad use of logic is.

If one is going to call abortion murder, then be logically consistent about it. A girl/women to get one has to have a pre meditated thought to even want one. Then she has to act on that thought and seek out a doctor. The doctor is not the only person involved in that act.

When two guys rob someone for their wallet, one guy might come up with the idea, they both go along with it, one ends up murdering the victim. Most of the time in law, even if one does not have the intent of murder, BOTH will be charged with murder.

Now again, be logically consistent and answer me this right now. WHAT SHOULD BE THE PUNISHMENT FOR THE GIRL/WOMAN?

I think you're confusing the issue.

So you're saying that the doctor is equally guilty? Fine.
What should the punishment be for the girl be? Well I don't personally think either should be punished. But if the doctor does something illegal prompted by the girl then he's as guilty as she is.

(June 24, 2014 at 8:50 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 8:36 am)pocaracas Wrote: You're changing the premises of the dilemma, here... tss tss tss

How?

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(June 24, 2014 at 8:37 am)Brian37 Wrote: Sides is not the issue. Bad use of logic is.

If one is going to call abortion murder, then be logically consistent about it. A girl/women to get one has to have a pre meditated thought to even want one. Then she has to act on that thought and seek out a doctor. The doctor is not the only person involved in that act.

When two guys rob someone for their wallet, one guy might come up with the idea, they both go along with it, one ends up murdering the victim. Most of the time in law, even if one does not have the intent of murder, BOTH will be charged with murder.

Now again, be logically consistent and answer me this right now. WHAT SHOULD BE THE PUNISHMENT FOR THE GIRL/WOMAN?

I think you're confusing the issue.

So you're saying that the doctor is equally guilty? Fine.
What should the punishment be for the girl be? Well I don't personally think either should be punished. But if the doctor does something illegal prompted by the girl then he's as guilty as she is.

NO FRODO, you are calling abortion murder, not me. If you call it murder that would mean the woman should be charged with murder. If you are not willing to do that then you are being logically inconsistent.

What you do not realize is in reality you really don't care about the baby itself, because if you really do care and are willing to call abortion murder than to stand up for that view and morality, the right thing for you to do is to treat her as a murderer.

Serioulsy, that would be no different than if I called you on the phone, told you to murder someone else, and you did it. It took me to call you, just like it takes a pregnant women to seek out a doctor.

SO call it murder if you wish(I don't call it murder). But put your money where you mouth is and punish the girl/woman too. Otherwise you are blowing smoke up my ass.

(June 24, 2014 at 8:50 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(June 24, 2014 at 8:36 am)pocaracas Wrote: You're changing the premises of the dilemma, here... tss tss tss

How?

The trolley problem has two sets of people. At least one of them must die. Your choice is who dies. It's not kill or not to kill, like you suggested in your example where you wanted me to be the victim!

(June 24, 2014 at 8:50 am)fr0d0 Wrote: So you're saying that the doctor is equally guilty? Fine.
What should the punishment be for the girl be? Well I don't personally think either should be punished. But if the doctor does something illegal prompted by the girl then he's as guilty as she is.

Statistics time, huh?
https://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion...n_who.html
In the US, a country with roughly 150 million women, about 1.3 million have an abortion, every year.
That's almost 1%.
Imagine all of these women had some legal penalty applied to them for that practice.
1% of US women, every year (not the same group of women every year, but new women, for the most part).
If they get a penalty equivalent to murder... how long must they stay in prison? 20 years?

After 20 years, you'd have almost 20% of US women behind bars. Congratz on solving the problem - less women out there to impregnate, less abortions!
More rape for those who are on the outside, but hey... who cares!?

So the question must be: is abortion the same as murder? Do you want to equate the two? Are you sure?

Guys, I don't think that abortion is murder.

Please put away the noose. Over excited! LOL

He's mixing you up with one of the other posters in the thread.

(June 24, 2014 at 9:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Guys, I don't think that abortion is murder.

Please put away the noose. Over excited! LOL

Then why would it be wrong?